504Cue system V2.0

lamrith · November 6th, 2009, 09:27 AM

Well, I have been away from this for a while, but after years it is time to finally make the move for PC firing!

I have added a page to the site outlining current status, not sure ets for running tests just yet.

http://www.pyrohouse.com/504cuepcfire.htm

I just recieved my big blank rack panel lastnight, so I can start cutting and drilling and mounting the additional switches, LEDs, etc.

mutski · November 6th, 2009, 04:27 PM

I have many many questions for you, and where to start....

Firstly I guess, do you realise DMX is specifically not approved for fireworks? Its not a very reliable format of control. Its very good for lights (as designed for) because it updates regularly worst case 44 times per second. So if a glitch occurs, then it will hopefully be corrected soon enough. You may not notice a light misbehaving due to bad DMX. Especially those higher channels. The big problem is that the synchronisation pulse only happens at the start of the packet, and by the time you get to channel 500 you hope they are still in sync. Now high end equipment is ok, but beware of cheaper stuff - especially that stuff favoured by DJs!!!

But convincing someone not to use DMX (especially if you've already bought parts like you have) is like convincing someone to change religion...

So on to my other points. I don't like the idea of a tether style of deadman. It would need to be very short to disconnect if you "die and fall over". Plus I think it would probably just pull the panel over with you. On a jetski there is a massive force difference when you are thrown off. An 80kg person vs a 500kg jetski going in different directions... If you don't like having buttons I have 2 suggestions. Firstly you can have 2 seperate buttons. When you get tired of holding one, change to the other, then release the first. Also on my big systems, I have the deadman on a handheld remote with a 6' cable attached so I can still point at things, and move my arms around which makes it more comfortable. Second option could be a foot switch.

Why do you need a key to change between manual and PC? I would have thought just a simple toggle switch would be fine. Keys should only be used where a safety element exists.

Just my 2cents worth (and the aussie dollar is at an all time high right now!).

Matt

lamrith · November 6th, 2009, 05:06 PM

Inteesting points!

Keys I have already laying around from original build, plus it is one more thing for a kid to have to to do kill someone.

This case this is being put into weighs #35 EMPTY, plus I am adding probably double that in gear inside it, it will not move. Plus chances are that I will be in the field shooting and I will have a trusted person on the tether. He is our backup safety guy and is outside the safety zone. If something goes wrong it is his job to take action, be that enter the safety zone to render aid to one of us shooters, use an extinguisher to put out a fire, etc, so he will move from the panel, being tethered automatically safes the system when he takes action. I actually was considering not using a switch but thought better of it.

I had not heard that about DMX with packet drops, I am only using 50channels to get the 504 cue, I am not a pro, so if I am .1 second off nobody is going to notice it.

If DMX is not approved for pyro as an established protocol, then none of the other programs everyone is doing in thier homes is going to be either, that particular issue imho is not as important, since I am only a private guy shooting. if I was doing pro, paid for or permitted shoots, then I would be stuck with pyromate, fireone, etc, like everyone else.

The use of this system 99% of the time will be for handling show frontage, mines, comets, fountains, roman candle racks, etc. Cakes and Shells we handfire normally.

mutski · November 6th, 2009, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lamrith

Keys I have already laying around from original build, plus it is one more thing for a kid to have to to do kill someone.

Kid shouldn't be able to kill anyone as you have the master power key & a fire circuit key. In my opinion only one key is needed, but I don't mind 2 for redundancy. I just think 3 is way overkill. Otherwise you might as well have a key on every circuit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lamrith

I had not heard that about DMX with packet drops, I am only using 50channels to get the 504 cue, I am not a pro, so if I am .1 second off nobody is going to notice it.

The problem is not drops. The problem is that there is no error correction and the synchronisation pulse only happens at the start of the packet. So by the time your controller gets to channel 500 your receiving devices might be reading data for channel 499 or 501. Now if you are only using the first 50 you are definitely in a safer world. Also I'm not talking about it being off by .1 second. I'm talking about channel x firing when you expected channel y to fire because there was an error in the DMX transmission.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lamrith

If DMX is not approved for pyro as an established protocol, then none of the other programs everyone is doing in thier homes is going to be either

You are correct. It's actually ESTA who developed/maintain DMX that prohibit its use for fireworks. I'm not sure about your NFPA regs (I'm in Australia). My big concern is the lack of error detection/correction, especially if you're using cheap DJ equipment do build the system.

Also is this stuff mains powered? How do you power it in the field? If you are planning on generators, be wary of cheap little units which are really only designed to run power tools. I discovered last year that my battery power system, with a battery power laptop worked fine. I was doing a large show and thought I'd run a generator to charge the laptop as the battery was only lasting about 30 minutes. Yes I know I should have replaced the battery but I thought I'd get away with having a fully charged battery and a generator backup. Anyway the generator caused heaps of spikes that made the firing system erratic. Disconnected the generator and everything was fine again. Luckily the show finished about 5 minutes before the laptop did.

I don't mean to sound devils advocate. Just want to put some points out there that many people don't necessarily think about.

Matt

rapidshot · November 6th, 2009, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mutski

I have many many questions for you, and where to start....

Firstly I guess, do you realise DMX is specifically not approved for fireworks? Its not a very reliable format of control. Its very good for lights (as designed for) because it updates regularly worst case 44 times per second. So if a glitch occurs, then it will hopefully be corrected soon enough.

Lets not forget 2 years ago a certain new years show at the Space Needle running via "FireOne" 30 seconds into the show and puke no more show... it never did recover. You can have the best software in the world but "glitches" can always happen. Point being, 44 times a second update is more than enough and from the quality craftsmanship I have seen Lamrith produce I am excited to see how this will turn out.

mutski · November 6th, 2009, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rapidshot

Lets not forget 2 years ago a certain new years show at the Space Needle running via "FireOne" 30 seconds into the show and puke no more show... it never did recover. You can have the best software in the world but "glitches" can always happen. Point being, 44 times a second update is more than enough and from the quality craftsmanship I have seen Lamrith produce I am excited to see how this will turn out.

I'm not promoting any other system. They can all have problems (except mine of course!

)

And I'm not complaining that DMX only runs 44 updates per second - that is the slowest it runs BTW if you transmit all 512 channels of data. The protocol allows for faster updates if you only transmit say 50 channels - its more that because its a high speed data stream of 250kbps with no error correction you might try to fire channel x and channel y goes off instead. Maybe you are firing a small effect in the middle of the show, and suddenly the finale goes off. Your receiving devices see a fire command and blindly go ahead and fire whatever they think the controller sent.

In lighting it doesn't matter too much, and should *hopefully* be fixed on the next packet which should be fast enough to not even be noticeable to a human. But a fire command is a fire command and will most likely do something on the first transmission. Maybe if your receivers have to decode a fire command 3 times in a row before they fire it would be better, but he's using off the shelf items so thats unlikely to happen.

Matt

pyroman131 · November 7th, 2009, 04:44 AM

I think you already have bougth your DMX system.
But if you look this link, you will see a lot of inexpensive system also with wireless connection.

Renard system (8, 24, 32, .... cue on each receiver and works with renard firmware or DMX) http://www.christmasinshirley.com/wi...p?title=Renard

For renard in order to be wireless http://www.doityourselfchristmas.com...?t=8102&page=6

The soft is vixen light witch is adapted for fireworks http://www.vixenlights.com/

Good luck for your project.

lamrith · November 7th, 2009, 09:09 AM

Thanks for the links!

Yeah our base DMX lighting system was already existing, which was what pushed me to go the DMX route in the end. Buying quality DMX equipment as many know is $$ and it took years for me to finally decide to go dmx, up till 6 mos ago my plan was to use a parrallel port system as used in many of the christmas light systems. Once I decided on DMX, all I had to do was buy a DMX to analog convertor unit. I looked at DIY ones again, but decided to buy an established unit from a well known and trusted Mfg.
That convertor alone doubled the overall cost of my firing system to date.

I bought piano hinge lastnight on the way home. I have decided to hinge the entire top edge of the plate so I can open it up to work on it, service batteries or whatever may pop up. I will try to get a couple more picture on page in a day or so, or more parts.

casdsys · November 8th, 2009, 06:18 AM

Originally Posted by lamrith
If DMX is not approved for pyro as an established protocol, then none of the other programs everyone is doing in thier homes is going to be either.

I second motion this and also agree with Mutski.
DMX + PYRO = BAD NEWS.
However if your doing displays in your backyard to impress your friends and family... Your choice...

We should have our 6,000 cue wireless systems ready in about 6 months.

Cheers.

lamrith · November 8th, 2009, 09:26 AM

I am honestly still trying to fathom what your issues are with my system personally. Not a single person on this site building a DIY system has error correction in it, heck many of them are also adding in the additional complexity and interference possibility by doing it wireless as well.

We are all AMATEUR pyro's, doing small shows at our homes on holidays. Most of us also run our shoot more pro style with safety zones, proper racks etc. Nobody is going to be near the items I am lighting via PC. During a show you could NEVER truly know when each item is going to go off, error correction or not, unless you are lighting it yourself. Trying to track individual items while also lighting your own items by hand? GOOD LUCK, even with a person manually firing the frontage to a script I created I would never venture into that area of the show, no reason too and it is to dangerous.

We are a low channel count system. yes I am 504 cues, but only use 50 channels total. If an error goes thru, and something goes off wrong, or doesn't go off, sure I might be bummed, but nothing I do in my shows will be pointed where people might be at any time during the show, safety is covered before ignition source becomes an issue.

So with all the PC fire talk going on why is it you guys have decided to jump and bash my system? Nobody ever has said a word to anyone else about thier homemade PC units so what the deal picking on mine?

Firejunkie · November 8th, 2009, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lamrith

I am honestly still trying to fathom what your issues are with my system personally. Not a single person on this site building a DIY system has error correction in it, heck many of them are also adding in the additional complexity and interference possibility by doing it wireless as well.

We are all AMATEUR pyro's, doing small shows at our homes on holidays. Most of us also run our shoot more pro style with safety zones, proper racks etc. Nobody is going to be near the items I am lighting via PC. During a show you could NEVER truly know when each item is going to go off, error correction or not, unless you are lighting it yourself. Trying to track individual items while also lighting your own items by hand? GOOD LUCK, even with a person manually firing the frontage to a script I created I would never venture into that area of the show, no reason too and it is to dangerous.

We are a low channel count system. yes I am 504 cues, but only use 50 channels total. If an error goes thru, and something goes off wrong, or doesn't go off, sure I might be bummed, but nothing I do in my shows will be pointed where people might be at any time during the show, safety is covered before ignition source becomes an issue.

So with all the PC fire talk going on why is it you guys have decided to jump and bash my system? Nobody ever has said a word to anyone else about thier homemade PC units so what the deal picking on mine?

I don't see any problem with your wish to use it for small "backyard" shows, I know I for one don't have error protection when I push the wrong button and fire the wrong board/cake/rack

. All this really makes no differance for a home type show, for the pro setups, sure you want the best system you can afford.

casdsys · November 9th, 2009, 01:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lamrith

I am honestly still trying to fathom what your issues are with my system personally. Not a single person on this site building a DIY system has error correction in it, heck many of them are also adding in the additional complexity and interference possibility by doing it wireless as well.

We are all AMATEUR pyro's, doing small shows at our homes on holidays. Most of us also run our shoot more pro style with safety zones, proper racks etc. Nobody is going to be near the items I am lighting via PC. During a show you could NEVER truly know when each item is going to go off, error correction or not, unless you are lighting it yourself. Trying to track individual items while also lighting your own items by hand? GOOD LUCK, even with a person manually firing the frontage to a script I created I would never venture into that area of the show, no reason too and it is to dangerous.

We are a low channel count system. yes I am 504 cues, but only use 50 channels total. If an error goes thru, and something goes off wrong, or doesn't go off, sure I might be bummed, but nothing I do in my shows will be pointed where people might be at any time during the show, safety is covered before ignition source becomes an issue.

So with all the PC fire talk going on why is it you guys have decided to jump and bash my system? Nobody ever has said a word to anyone else about thier homemade PC units so what the deal picking on mine?

Were not having issues with, or bashing your firing system. All forum members have the free choice of designing and building their own systems. They even get ideas and assistance from this forum.

However the key point members are trying to get across, is SAFETY and Reliability. I have read on websites that state DMX is NOT suitable for firing fireworks. So even though we use manually controlled firing systems, i.e. Panel + cable + rail, we've looked at the options and have decided to go over to wireless firing systems, which we design and manufacture. There are alot of variations in wireless firing systems, some good and some, well....questionable.
We have spent some time doing research and development in this area and believe we have come up with the best solution but more about that later.

Regarding error detection, we could include it in our design but we already have 128 bit data encryption which I think is enough.
Cheers...

mutski · November 9th, 2009, 01:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by casdsys

Regarding error detection, we could include it in our design but we already have 128 bit data encryption which I think is enough.

Surely if you are encrypted, there must be a checksum in there somewhere?

Quote:

Originally Posted by lamrith

I am honestly still trying to fathom what your issues are with my system personally. Not a single person on this site building a DIY system has error correction in it, heck many of them are also adding in the additional complexity and interference possibility by doing it wireless as well.

As casdsys said (and I think I've tried to say a few times) you don't have to listen to us. I mean I don't really care one way or another. But you put your plans here on a public forum of like minded people and ask opinions of people who've already built their own system/systems. Well these are my opinions. I've built many systems, both wired and wireless. Sorry if I haven't mentioned things that I like about your design, but the first thing we do when looking at any design is look for (in our opinion) flaws or things we wouldn't do ourselves.

Also many of the wireless systems - including the cheap arse chinese ones - are based around the Holtek HT-12F decoder IC. This has inbuilt error checking. It must receive the proper encoded address 3 times in a row before it will activate. So the chances of wrong misfiring are quite low, and you get error detection for free! - Lets not talk about whether the chinese stuff will work in the first place though!

Cheers - Matt

lamrith · November 9th, 2009, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mutski

Surely if you are encrypted, there must be a checksum in there somewhere?

As casdsys said (and I think I've tried to say a few times) you don't have to listen to us. I mean I don't really care one way or another. But you put your plans here on a public forum of like minded people and ask opinions of people who've already built their own system/systems. Well these are my opinions. I've built many systems, both wired and wireless. Sorry if I haven't mentioned things that I like about your design, but the first thing we do when looking at any design is look for (in our opinion) flaws or things we wouldn't do ourselves.

Also many of the wireless systems - including the cheap arse chinese ones - are based around the Holtek HT-12F decoder IC. This has inbuilt error checking. It must receive the proper encoded address 3 times in a row before it will activate. So the chances of wrong misfiring are quite low, and you get error detection for free! - Lets not talk about whether the chinese stuff will work in the first place though!

Cheers - Matt

While I appreciate everyone is free to thier opinions, and normally and quite open for ideas and tips. Actually I was not asking for opinions, I was just letting everyone know that the migration had begun. If you ask around, there are quite a few people that have followed my systems development since the early days of this site. I have also built a number of wired systems, I have avoided wireless so far though I have a full set of the madein china boards sitting ready if I change my mind.

My "complaint" about your posts is that I feel singled out when eveyone else building DIY PC fire on this site is using nothing any better. But I have yet to see a single concern/issue raised with thier builds, so why criticize mine for the issue? I am not the 1st person on this site to use or design around dmx, let alone the home scripted programs and people building IC arrays from scratch, adapting Midi (also not approved) ardruino (sp?) etc.

The wireless does have error checking, my concern there is a lack of firing as well due to interference, battery life etc. and even then, if the pc sends a wrong signal to the TX your still firing something wrong.

One plus is that my system does require double entry for each shot. the system will have to not only open the cue relay, but also the slat relay. If it were to say fire 2 cue relays, nothing would happen.

mutski · November 10th, 2009, 03:47 AM

I apologize if I have offended you. This was not my intention. I'm not singling you out at all, and have voiced my opinions many times on other designs. I don't know about arduino or other pc related topics, so I don't comment on them. But I do know DMX very very well having worked for 10 years in concert/theatrical lighting environment. I've designed and built my own DMX equipment and these days my job is designing embedded controllers.

Anyway I'll bow out of the whole topic now. Good luck with your system.

pyroman131 · November 10th, 2009, 12:06 PM

DMX is not recommended for pyro but not forbidden.
Of course, use this system in a pro firework show can't be done because of safety and inssurance.

But even with pro firing system (pyrodigital and Efisy) we have problems : during the test some cue ignite some fireworks (the last at Disneyland).

To take an exemple, Efisy wireless system is not allowed in europe because of the frequency and the power but it is used in many fireworks and it works well.

November 6th, 2009, 09:27 AM	#1
lamrith Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: WA Posts: 706	504Cue system V2.0 Well, I have been away from this for a while, but after years it is time to finally make the move for PC firing! I have added a page to the site outlining current status, not sure ets for running tests just yet. http://www.pyrohouse.com/504cuepcfire.htm I just recieved my big blank rack panel lastnight, so I can start cutting and drilling and mounting the additional switches, LEDs, etc. __________________ _______________________ PYROHOUSE WA FIREWORKS

November 6th, 2009, 04:27 PM	#2
mutski Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 162	Re: 504Cue system V2.0 I have many many questions for you, and where to start.... Firstly I guess, do you realise DMX is specifically not approved for fireworks? Its not a very reliable format of control. Its very good for lights (as designed for) because it updates regularly worst case 44 times per second. So if a glitch occurs, then it will hopefully be corrected soon enough. You may not notice a light misbehaving due to bad DMX. Especially those higher channels. The big problem is that the synchronisation pulse only happens at the start of the packet, and by the time you get to channel 500 you hope they are still in sync. Now high end equipment is ok, but beware of cheaper stuff - especially that stuff favoured by DJs!!! But convincing someone not to use DMX (especially if you've already bought parts like you have) is like convincing someone to change religion... So on to my other points. I don't like the idea of a tether style of deadman. It would need to be very short to disconnect if you "die and fall over". Plus I think it would probably just pull the panel over with you. On a jetski there is a massive force difference when you are thrown off. An 80kg person vs a 500kg jetski going in different directions... If you don't like having buttons I have 2 suggestions. Firstly you can have 2 seperate buttons. When you get tired of holding one, change to the other, then release the first. Also on my big systems, I have the deadman on a handheld remote with a 6' cable attached so I can still point at things, and move my arms around which makes it more comfortable. Second option could be a foot switch. Why do you need a key to change between manual and PC? I would have thought just a simple toggle switch would be fine. Keys should only be used where a safety element exists. Just my 2cents worth (and the aussie dollar is at an all time high right now!). Matt

November 7th, 2009, 04:44 AM	#7
pyroman131 Member Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 28	Re: 504Cue system V2.0 I think you already have bougth your DMX system. But if you look this link, you will see a lot of inexpensive system also with wireless connection. Renard system (8, 24, 32, .... cue on each receiver and works with renard firmware or DMX) http://www.christmasinshirley.com/wi...p?title=Renard For renard in order to be wireless http://www.doityourselfchristmas.com...?t=8102&page=6 The soft is vixen light witch is adapted for fireworks http://www.vixenlights.com/ Good luck for your project.

November 7th, 2009, 09:09 AM	#8
lamrith Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: WA Posts: 706	Re: 504Cue system V2.0 Thanks for the links! Yeah our base DMX lighting system was already existing, which was what pushed me to go the DMX route in the end. Buying quality DMX equipment as many know is $$ and it took years for me to finally decide to go dmx, up till 6 mos ago my plan was to use a parrallel port system as used in many of the christmas light systems. Once I decided on DMX, all I had to do was buy a DMX to analog convertor unit. I looked at DIY ones again, but decided to buy an established unit from a well known and trusted Mfg. That convertor alone doubled the overall cost of my firing system to date. I bought piano hinge lastnight on the way home. I have decided to hinge the entire top edge of the plate so I can open it up to work on it, service batteries or whatever may pop up. I will try to get a couple more picture on page in a day or so, or more parts. __________________ _______________________ PYROHOUSE WA FIREWORKS

November 8th, 2009, 06:18 AM	#9
casdsys Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Australia Posts: 56	Re: 504Cue system V2.0 Originally Posted by lamrith If DMX is not approved for pyro as an established protocol, then none of the other programs everyone is doing in thier homes is going to be either. I second motion this and also agree with Mutski. DMX + PYRO = BAD NEWS. However if your doing displays in your backyard to impress your friends and family... Your choice... We should have our 6,000 cue wireless systems ready in about 6 months. Cheers. __________________ ___________________________________ Creative FIREWORKS Manufacturers of Wireless Firing Systems Licensed for Indoor/Outdoor Pyrotechnics Member of the PIAA

November 6th, 2009, 05:06 PM	#3
lamrith Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: WA Posts: 706	Re: 504Cue system V2.0 Inteesting points! Keys I have already laying around from original build, plus it is one more thing for a kid to have to to do kill someone. This case this is being put into weighs #35 EMPTY, plus I am adding probably double that in gear inside it, it will not move. Plus chances are that I will be in the field shooting and I will have a trusted person on the tether. He is our backup safety guy and is outside the safety zone. If something goes wrong it is his job to take action, be that enter the safety zone to render aid to one of us shooters, use an extinguisher to put out a fire, etc, so he will move from the panel, being tethered automatically safes the system when he takes action. I actually was considering not using a switch but thought better of it. I had not heard that about DMX with packet drops, I am only using 50channels to get the 504 cue, I am not a pro, so if I am .1 second off nobody is going to notice it. If DMX is not approved for pyro as an established protocol, then none of the other programs everyone is doing in thier homes is going to be either, that particular issue imho is not as important, since I am only a private guy shooting. if I was doing pro, paid for or permitted shoots, then I would be stuck with pyromate, fireone, etc, like everyone else. The use of this system 99% of the time will be for handling show frontage, mines, comets, fountains, roman candle racks, etc. Cakes and Shells we handfire normally. __________________ _______________________ PYROHOUSE WA FIREWORKS

November 8th, 2009, 09:26 AM	#10
lamrith Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: WA Posts: 706	Re: 504Cue system V2.0 I am honestly still trying to fathom what your issues are with my system personally. Not a single person on this site building a DIY system has error correction in it, heck many of them are also adding in the additional complexity and interference possibility by doing it wireless as well. We are all AMATEUR pyro's, doing small shows at our homes on holidays. Most of us also run our shoot more pro style with safety zones, proper racks etc. Nobody is going to be near the items I am lighting via PC. During a show you could NEVER truly know when each item is going to go off, error correction or not, unless you are lighting it yourself. Trying to track individual items while also lighting your own items by hand? GOOD LUCK, even with a person manually firing the frontage to a script I created I would never venture into that area of the show, no reason too and it is to dangerous. We are a low channel count system. yes I am 504 cues, but only use 50 channels total. If an error goes thru, and something goes off wrong, or doesn't go off, sure I might be bummed, but nothing I do in my shows will be pointed where people might be at any time during the show, safety is covered before ignition source becomes an issue. So with all the PC fire talk going on why is it you guys have decided to jump and bash my system? Nobody ever has said a word to anyone else about thier homemade PC units so what the deal picking on mine? __________________ _______________________ PYROHOUSE WA FIREWORKS

November 10th, 2009, 03:47 AM	#15
mutski Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 162	Re: 504Cue system V2.0 I apologize if I have offended you. This was not my intention. I'm not singling you out at all, and have voiced my opinions many times on other designs. I don't know about arduino or other pc related topics, so I don't comment on them. But I do know DMX very very well having worked for 10 years in concert/theatrical lighting environment. I've designed and built my own DMX equipment and these days my job is designing embedded controllers. Anyway I'll bow out of the whole topic now. Good luck with your system.

November 10th, 2009, 12:06 PM	#16
pyroman131 Member Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 28	Re: 504Cue system V2.0 DMX is not recommended for pyro but not forbidden. Of course, use this system in a pro firework show can't be done because of safety and inssurance. But even with pro firing system (pyrodigital and Efisy) we have problems : during the test some cue ignite some fireworks (the last at Disneyland). To take an exemple, Efisy wireless system is not allowed in europe because of the frequency and the power but it is used in many fireworks and it works well.