Patroit Act, CPSC, etc.

[Don F]

Ok guys it aint pretty but I told ya so!!

FYI the internal passport is the new federal ID and it was passed in 2005
the next time you renew your drivers license or ID it will be a federal ID card which you will be required to have to board a plane if you are a US citizen.
Seems a little strange that non citizens wont be required to have such a tracking device doesnt it .
The programs used to monitor the net and phone lines have a number of red flag words and phrases. You also have to realize that information collected by these programs is shared through out the New home land security system this includes the BATFE,FBI, CIA,CPSC, Local police and fire ect.
Anyone who paid attention to the wording of the patriot act as well as homeland security act knew well the illegal wire taps and survailence of US citzens was included.
Both of these acts blatently subvert the constitution. Its no wonder every time a provission of either act is challenged in court its struck down as unconstitutional .
When the subjects of these acts were discussed on the old forum many dismissed the warnings as conspiracy theories. What one has to Realize is that some provissions were removed before enactment to aviod drawing attention to the content of the acts. A very scary provission that was kept is the ablity of the government to hold a suspected terrorist indefinately without counsel.
A provission that was saught but not included allowed the government to expatriate a citizen suspected of being or supporting terrorism. Legally if a person is not a citizen they are not protected under the constitution. this would have allowed anyone arrested for drugs/weapons possession/assult ect to have their citizenship stripped.
Yes Viirginia big brother is watching you
and unlike Santa he's making a number of lists

Of course this is all just a conspiracy theory after all GW and the GOP is for less government and doing away with the nanny state

Yes guys by all means Vote but research who your voting for and check their voting record. Personally I refuse to vote for anyone who supported either of these stalinistic acts. Its my firm belief that those who supported these acts should be brought up on charges of treason for attemting to destroy the constitution. Of course Im a bit conservitive when it comes to the countries foundation but then those from the right tend to be very liberal about redefining the constitution to fit their personal agenda

[PyroReview]

I think Justice William O. Douglas had it right when he said "The privacy and dignity of our citizens are being whittled away by sometimes imperceptible steps. Taken individually, each step may be of little consequence. But when viewed as a whole, there begins to emerge a society quite unlike any we have seen -- a society in which government may intrude into the secret regions of a person's life."

And that was back in the 70's.

[PyroReview]

Yes guys by all means Vote but research who your voting for and check their voting record. Personally I refuse to vote for anyone who supported either of these stalinistic acts. Its my firm belief that those who supported these acts should be brought up on charges of treason for attemting to destroy the constitution. Of course Im a bit conservitive when it comes to the countries foundation but then those from the right tend to be very liberal about redefining the constitution to fit their personal agenda

There's actually a website you can go to that will show you who is voting on what and what they have voted on in the past (http://www.congress.org/congressorg/megavote).

And, for anyone that thinks this whole "spying thing" is a good idea, you need to read this article:
http://www.alternet.org/story/29814/

Makes you think...

[Don F]

yes I find it quite strange that the president chooses to break the law he swore to uphold and protect.
This goes far beyond the patriot act and even homeland security neither of which allow the type of wire tapping that was ordered by the president
I was under the impression the government was supposed to govern and be held accountable by the laws of the constitution . I guess subverting the constitution and bill of rights has gone from being treason to being patriotic under the current regime

[lwoodpyro]

No one is anonymous. Whether it's your grocery store discount card, your gas station discount card, your library card, your new Federal I.D., there is a wealth of info on all of us. Some guy, in some backroom office, knows that tonight, Bo's gonna get a 1/2 pint of Chunky Monkey ice cream, because he gets one every Tuesday, around 7:00p.m. These types of information, meaning your routine habits, make you easy to locate, should the need arise. We are creatures of habit, & we will eventually try to go back to "normal" if we had reason to hide out for awhile. Human nature. The questions we are now asked is "Why are you afraid? Are you hiding something?" Well, my answer is no, I'm not hiding anything, & yes, I'm afraid of where we are headed. Your photo is snapped dozens of times a day by store surveillance equipment. Cameras on traffic lights, & toll-way booths. Common sense says our government must fear the next Timothy McVeigh a lot more than they fear radical Muslims. The surveillance is skewed in that direction.
It is a sad day when we, owners of this country by sweat, blood, & inheritance, are forced to fear those in whom we've placed our greatest trust. Eventualy, we will all fear each other, & in that state of existence, we are easier to control & subvert.

[PyroReview]

What Bush said in 2004 about wiretaps and court orders:

Now, by the way, any time you hear the United States government talking about wiretap, it requires -- a wiretap requires a court order. Nothing has changed, by the way. When we're talking about chasing down terrorists, we're talking about getting a court order before we do so. It's important for our fellow citizens to understand, when you think Patriot Act, constitutional guarantees are in place when it comes to doing what is necessary to protect our homeland, because we value the Constitution.

The Patriot Act changed that. So with court order, law enforcement officials can now use what's called roving wiretaps, which will prevent a terrorist from switching cell phones in order to get a message out to one of his buddies.

(Source: Whitehouse.gov)

What Bush is saying in 2005:

Bush said the Constitution and the congressional resolution passed after Sept. 11 authorizing "all necessary and appropriate force" allowed him to carry out the controversial eavesdropping.

"I swore to uphold the laws," Bush said from behind the lectern, raising his right hand just as he did when he took the oath of office. "Do I have the legal authority to do this? The answer is absolutely."

(Source: Chicago Tribune)

[Don F]

What would you expect the king to say other than he has absolute power.

[leeca]

So I guess Richard Nixon was not such a bad guy.

I wonder if they also picked up a little worldwide Oil Company insider info as well. .. GW Doing daddy little favors?

We will not find out about that for another 2 years.

I wonder just how well the Bushes are doing financially these days.

[Don F]

Ok People there is six months to write call and ralley .
Lets get proactive here. Excersize your duty as a voter and send a real message that the american people wil not support those who would weaken the constitution through the Patriot act.
This isnt a battle between conservetives and liberals or democrats and republicans . Its a battle to save the foundation of this nation.
Read the act and compare it to what the constitution protects against.
look at the past court cases that have struck down major portions that have been challenged.
Then let our politicians know we wont allow such subversion, start recall petitions for its most adament supporters, letters on real paper.

[yeagerb]

Ok People there is six months to write call and ralley .
Lets get proactive here. Excersize your duty as a voter and send a real message that the american people wil not support those who would weaken the constitution through the Patriot act.
This isnt a battle between conservetives and liberals or democrats and republicans . Its a battle to save the foundation of this nation.
Read the act and compare it to what the constitution protects against.
look at the past court cases that have struck down major portions that have been challenged.
Then let our politicians know we wont allow such subversion, start recall petitions for its most adament supporters, letters on real paper.

This is the grass roots spirit I'm talking about! I'm planning on exercising my constitutional rights with a hand written letter to my Reps!!!! We are the land of "E PLURIBUS UNUM" - Out of many, one!

Younger Pyro's - this is your Civic's lesson....when you turn 18, get your voter registration done as quickly as possible!!! Your voice counts!

[PyroReview]

Saw this on another site, thought it would fit this thread:

Ok, say Americans have no problem with the governemnt eavesdropping into our conversations. Sure, no probem.

But chew on this... You think for now that you are a law abiding citizen with nothing to hide. However, once you have given away your rights and freedoms - for the 1% chance* of possibly stopping a terrorist - you will not win them back from a government without magnificently stellar amounts of blood being lost and lives being taken.

Once you have given up your rights and freedoms to a government, it becomes de facto and de jour operation and that very same government can, and will, by obvious historical examples, take more from you, and no one will stop that acquisition through peaceful means, despite all the innocent protestations by that government. History preceeds these actions in any government. Once a government is given massive amounts of power by the people, the power then becomes abused. Power is the nature of mankind.

Do not believe me on my say so. Take a look at the very history of mankind. I present for you - Ceaser, Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, Franco, Mao Tse Tung, Pol Pott, Lan Nol, Ceausescu, and on and on. I can give you current examples if you would like as well.

If, after thinking about these examples and still not understanding, then I will bow gracefully to your vision.

However, I will present to you one more possible insight, that is complete with the impassioned and indignant cries of the souls, whose lives were lost by the millions and millions of Romans, Germans, Jews, Gypsies, Gays, Lesbians, feebles, infirmed, aged, Russians, Spanish, Chinese, Laotians, Cambodians, Hungarians, Africans, and on and on... Who took that same tack and stood by as law-abiding citizens, while governments defined and refined what it meant to be law-abiding; and slowly, but surely took those who fell, more and more, outside of those definitions to task for their sin of being outside of that more and more refined definition.

One final thought... Should the government become the juggernaut that most governments become when given nearly unlimited power on its people by its people, then access to this website and others like it would be disallowed, probably under penalty of whatever penalties the government would deem appropriate for you not being a law abiding citizen. Take a look at China.

I am not fighting for my own freedoms. I am fighting for the freedoms of my children and my childrens children.

"When Hitler attacked the Jews I was not a Jew, therefore I was not concerned.
And when Hitler attacked the Catholics, I was not a Catholic, and therefore, I was not concerned.
And when Hitler attacked the unions and the industrialists, I was not a member of the unions and I was not concerned.
Then Hitler attacked me, and there was nobody left to be concerned."
— Martin Niemöller, 1933, Nazi Germany

* - This 1% is an actual number of chance on terrorists being caught by listening to phone conversations.

[Don F]

pyroreview
that is an excellent post
I had tried to find the quote from Martin Niemöller but hadnt had much luck
Thank you

[Bl@ckMarket]

This entire thread is depressing me.

Oh, and you'll need a passport if you want to go across the border to Mexico and/or Canada. Yeah...that will keep the illegals out.
Scary stuff coming down the pipe...

Yes all those cameras hidden all over the place are scary as well, especially in the cities. They did a test on someone in New York, his travels throught the city were traced by simply using all the cameras available on streets etc. He was pretty much observed for a 3-4 hour period with no problem going from one borough to the next!
Honestly I don't believe they really want to keep the illegals out. They probably have figured illegals = extremely cheap labor which = economy boost for the country. If the government wanted to shut illegal immigration they would do things differently. Illegals are everywhere right now, they even have their own job agencies! Four or five agencies all on one block. Why isn't the INS busting them? Then an average guy like myself knows through word of mouth "tricks of the trade" they use to sneak in. I'm pretty sure the INS is far more knowledgeable yet nothing is done. I guess until a terrorist sneaks in becoming "invisible" to the government and does something , is when they will act on it.
I'm with you guys, time to start writing, I'm even going to take it a step further and find out if there are any already existing groups who are against this Patriot act...so I can find out how to support and get more people involved. Enough is enough.

[SoonerKid]

Here is the "Patriot" Act (HR 3162 RDS) in its intirety!

http://www.epic.org/privacy/terrorism/hr3162.html

[PyroReview]

Here is the "Patriot" Act (HR 3162 RDS) in its intirety!

http://www.epic.org/privacy/terrorism/hr3162.html

Yes...it's very interesting reading...especially the parts that say that ANYONE can be labled as a terrorist. That won't get abused...

[yeagerb]

Well, looks like a Federal Judge in Portland, OR agrees at least in part:

PORTLAND, Ore. - Two provisions of the USA Patriot Act are unconstitutional because they allow search warrants to be issued without a showing of probable cause, a federal judge ruled Wednesday.

Link to entire story: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20999950/

[Don F]

Well, looks like a Federal Judge in Portland, OR agrees at least in part:

PORTLAND, Ore. - Two provisions of the USA Patriot Act are unconstitutional because they allow search warrants to be issued without a showing of probable cause, a federal judge ruled Wednesday.

Link to entire story: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20999950/

Yes but the Admin is already appealing