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strobes
December 5th, 2011, 09:23 AM
http://www.pyrouniverse.com/forum/showthread.php/37884-Hunan-Dream-Fireworks

Would fellow users of this website be willing to hire lobbyists to lobby congress to legalize whats considered consumer 1.4g fireworks in other countries like Europe?
Now obviously we would have to have stateside importers, trade groups like PGI, NFA and APA, retailers and everybody else involved in the industry to tackle this issue.
Now as a hobbyist, how much would you be willing to pony up for lobbying so we would have better product?
Ill start. I think its fair to donate $100 per year to teh cause.

BlitzK
December 5th, 2011, 09:32 AM
NRA for fireworks...

I'd probably join that group vs. PGI.

strobes
December 5th, 2011, 09:46 AM
NRA for fireworks...

I'd probably join that group vs. PGI.
The lobby would be independent from the PGI or any other trade group, but they would be members.
Actually a fireworks lobby would HAVE to be independent from anybody in the industry.
We would have a board of directors that are elected, but not be employees and so on for any company.

NW Fireworks Lover
December 5th, 2011, 09:52 AM
Well, not that bad of an idea. Truth is nowadays, if you want laws changed or the tax code changed, you just need money and lobbyists. With enough money and lobbying, the sky is the limit. I would support it.

Bayarea510
December 5th, 2011, 10:22 AM
I would been in for a chunk of cash. Maybe 500 to 1000.

FiveSix
December 5th, 2011, 10:33 AM
OOO i just replied to the other thread and saw this one! I'd be ok with it. I hate lobbyists, but if you can't beat them...... so yeah, I'd chip in. Retailers could fund them with a percentage of profits. Even if BJ Alan did .05 % that would be a lot of money! The whole US industry would have to agree on the goal and leadership. Importers and retailers would have to agree not to undermine each other. But great point. Every gun owner and gun store supports the NRA, the fireworks industry could learn from that if they can afford it.

stuntborg
December 5th, 2011, 11:33 AM
Not that I'm against this but you are looking at needing 100k a year minimum. This is a very fragmented industry and companies like phantom don't want stronger fireworks. Its not going to increase their sales but qould increase their liability.

Diamond Dave
December 5th, 2011, 11:59 AM
I would been in for a chunk of cash. Maybe 500 to 1000.
Business must be real good out your way these days......................:lolbash:

Diamond Dave

strobes
December 5th, 2011, 02:46 PM
Even if BJ Alan did .05 % that would be a lot of money! The whole US industry would have to agree on the goal and leadership. Importers and retailers would have to agree not to undermine each other. But great point. Every gun owner and gun store supports the NRA, the fireworks industry could learn from that if they can afford it.
Actually a percentage would be the easiest way. Impose a one tenth of one percent tax on all incoming fireworks.
In 2010 the value of fireworks imported was almost 191 million. Under the one tenth formula, thats 1.9 million for lobbying.
From above money take away 500K for the board, office space and so on, theres still 1.4 Million that would go to the lobbyists.
As for people on the board, one person from PGI, NFA, and APA and two people who have no financial interest in the trade, meaning non business owners but people that know and understand the industry.


Not that I'm against this but you are looking at needing 100k a year minimum. This is a very fragmented industry and companies like phantom don't want stronger fireworks. Its not going to increase their sales but qould increase their liability.

If we got congress to legalize harder hitting items, no more liability than there is now.

Mo206
December 5th, 2011, 03:10 PM
Actually a percentage would be the easiest way. Impose a one tenth of one percent tax on all incoming fireworks.
In 2010 the value of fireworks imported was almost 191 million. Under the one tenth formula, thats 1.9 million for lobbying.
From above money take away 500K for the board, office space and so on, theres still 1.4 Million that would go to the lobbyists.
As for people on the board, one person from PGI, NFA, and APA and two people who have no financial interest in the trade, meaning non business owners but people that know and understand the industry.



If we got congress to legalize harder hitting items, no more liability than there is now.


Well, that would be one percent, not a tenth of a percent, but anyway, I'd be willing to donate a 100 bucks a year. I love hard breaking cakes and it's pretty pathetic they aren't legal.

strobes
December 5th, 2011, 03:51 PM
Well, that would be one percent, not a tenth of a percent, but anyway, I'd be willing to donate a 100 bucks a year. I love hard breaking cakes and it's pretty pathetic they aren't legal.
Thank you for pointing that out to me, my math is off thanks to too many pain pills today thanks to my back:(.
Anyways, between a tax of 1% charged on all imports and hobbyists and such donating for the cause, 2 million for lobbying is not out of the question.

WWhite
December 5th, 2011, 03:52 PM
I think it's one of those things that I'd be "investing for my kids' futures"....as w/ all the safety moms who'd rather have someone else watch their kids constantly saying they are DANGEROUS...when they should try parenting and wondering WHY and HOW their "little angels" got ahold of fireworks which explicitly says 18+. Or just google "dumb shit kids do" or "kid fail"...and see how much dumb (and painful) crap they do already....

Anyways...at least a hundo/yr

strobes
December 5th, 2011, 04:43 PM
Im going to disagree with you DR.G. With the large bribes a.k.a donations we would be handing out to the right people, we easily in my opinion would have the laws in place within a decade

goneshootin
December 5th, 2011, 04:52 PM
American Pyrotechnics Association already has K&L Gates LLP lobbying for fireworks related issues. Maybe you want to hitch a ride on that wagon, instead of starting from zero.

I would imagine that increased legalization efforts on your part would draw the attention of the Consumer Issues/Safety/Protection lobby, which currently has over 500 lobbyists working for them. Not sure how the law enforcement lobby might react or the environmentalists lobby.


http://soprweb.senate.gov/index.cfm?event=choosefields

scarp9603
December 5th, 2011, 04:55 PM
Would the laws need to change?

It was changes to APA 87-1 that made 500's possible.

Fasttrack
December 5th, 2011, 04:57 PM
Isn't that silly? Buying laws? I hate lobbyists. Unless they're working for me :D

I'd poney up some cash to support a pro-fireworks lobby. I guess I need to find out more about K&L Gates LLP ...

stuntborg
December 5th, 2011, 05:01 PM
Could be I just had a rough day at work but I don't think this would end up going anywhere. First, "tax"...wouldn't really be a tax. It would be a volunteer fee imposed by importers? We all know that the fireworks importers don't agree on much. The predictions on the amount collected are probably drastically off. Next we have the AFSL who gets a wild hair up their ass and decides to impose an arbitrary test (this was the AFSL wasn't it???). They were suppose to stand up for fireworks. Then we have insurance that will go up. If the strength of the product goes up the opportunity for damage goes up. The premium for the insurance will go up and the amount of insurance to be carried will go up. Now don't forget all the bootleggers you would put out of business. I'm sure there are several people around Michigan disappointed that they are going to loose their customers.

I'm sure this isn't the popular stance around here. It is more based on the financial aspect of it and the practicality.

One thing that would be interesting to know is the history of the NRA. How did that orginization become so strong?

goneshootin
December 5th, 2011, 05:12 PM
Aren't most of the restrictions/laws concerning 1.4 g local and state laws?

Not sure getting the feds to over ride state laws banning/limiting is remotely possible..... and lobbying all 50 states legislators could get real expensive.



One thing that would be interesting to know is the history of the NRA. How did that orginization become so strong?

80 million registered gun owners?

Pyrohobie
December 5th, 2011, 05:23 PM
The first thing-

If I want to spend money to get "more powerful" fireworks-I find it better to have people spend money on thier selves rather than sending some money that even if EVERYONE sent wouldn't amount to much. Lobbyists are not cheap and getting the good ones-friends of pyrotechnics just couldn't afford! So, rather than sending money to pay for someones diner ticket and getting just about that-the bill, invest in getting more powerful fireworks yourself(storage-type54, contingency, clubs)

The second thing-

Just because this is a vision-doesn't mean your not going to have those letter goverment agencies ready to nail this to the wall!!!! The BATF, CPSC make a living making sure the public is safe- now trying to throw this at them-they have thier lawyers also.

The third-

Your favorite Mark----the APA!!!!

Now, they have been in this a long time- have thier own lobbyists, and surely you really don't think they have the muscle to let a bunch of friends, hobbyists, what ever you want to call Pyro U to rule the fireworks trade? No freaking way. Even if you get the PGI, NFA behind this(and you won't) because thier are people and businesses in both looking out for thier best interests.

I surely don't like playing devils advocate-but come on guys, I surely don't like seeing people sending thier money into someplace that won't get them anything.

lilnewman17
December 5th, 2011, 05:24 PM
I just buy 1.3 for stronger stuff.

WWhite
December 5th, 2011, 05:40 PM
Im going to disagree with you DR.G. With the large bribes a.k.a donations we would be handing out to the right people, we easily in my opinion would have the laws in place within a decade

You're probably right in other states...they'll get passage, but for us, we'd probably be one of the last adopters. Course, that's the purpose of what you're talking about...greater adoption overall. I just can't see a nationwide law that wouldn't have states able to override for their interests. I'd be optimistic though about getting quite a few more states in the next decade

strobes
December 5th, 2011, 05:42 PM
American Pyrotechnics Association already has K&L Gates LLP lobbying for fireworks related issues. Maybe you want to hitch a ride on that wagon, instead of starting from zero.

I would imagine that increased legalization efforts on your part would draw the attention of the Consumer Issues/Safety/Protection lobby, which currently has over 500 lobbyists working for them. Not sure how the law enforcement lobby might react or the environmentalists lobby.


http://soprweb.senate.gov/index.cfm?event=choosefields
Problem about APA is they are all about themselves. As for CPSC, they enforce whatever laws congress passes.


Would the laws need to change?

It was changes to APA 87-1 that made 500's possible.
A revision would be able to do it or do away with it for something else.

Could be I just had a rough day at work but I don't think this would end up going anywhere. First, "tax"...wouldn't really be a tax. It would be a volunteer fee imposed by importers? We all know that the fireworks importers don't agree on much. The predictions on the amount collected are probably drastically off. Next we have the AFSL who gets a wild hair up their ass and decides to impose an arbitrary test (this was the AFSL wasn't it???). They were suppose to stand up for fireworks. Then we have insurance that will go up. If the strength of the product goes up the opportunity for damage goes up. The premium for the insurance will go up and the amount of insurance to be carried will go up. Now don't forget all the bootleggers you would put out of business. I'm sure there are several people around Michigan disappointed that they are going to loose their customers.

I'm sure this isn't the popular stance around here. It is more based on the financial aspect of it and the practicality.

One thing that would be interesting to know is the history of the NRA. How did that orginization become so strong?
First of ASFL was a way for APA to try and corner the market with everything else in a distant second place.
The only way possible to collect the "tax" would be for the China Manufacturers to upcharge then send it to PYRO XYZ Lobby.
I admit that the idea is far fetched, but lets be honest with ourselves though, nobody is in a hurry to look out for us. All trade organizations started off small.

Aren't most of the restrictions/laws concerning 1.4 g local and state laws?

Not sure getting the feds to over ride state laws banning/limiting is remotely possible..... and lobbying all 50 states legislators could get real expensive.



80 million registered gun owners?
Not lobbying the feds to override state laws, but their very own ones allowing "euro" 1.4 to be legal stateside.


I just buy 1.3 for stronger stuff.
Not an option for alot of people. Some states and cities make it nearly impossible.

QMAN
December 5th, 2011, 05:46 PM
I was reading this and thinking along the same lines as goneshootin. Even though the NRA lobbies on a federal level I am sure they also do on a state level. Every state has somewhat different laws and it seems like focusing on state legislature would be more effective. I know there are websites that loosely spell out state laws, but it would be nice to have that updated and simple to understand from a 1.4g stand point. In addition to a plain english (non legal speak) listing of what each state's laws are it should also list who the state's senators and representatives are. And if possible who is pro fireworks and who isn't. And if there are any pending firework bills have them listed there. That would be a good start then we can focus on each state.

strobes
December 5th, 2011, 05:52 PM
I was reading this and thinking along the same lines as goneshootin. Even though the NRA lobbies on a federal level I am sure they also do on a state level. Every state has somewhat different laws and it seems like focusing on state legislature would be more effective. I know there are websites that loosely spell out state laws, but it would be nice to have that updated and simple to understand from a 1.4g stand point. In addition to a plain english (non legal speak) listing of what each state's laws are it should also list who the state's senators and representatives are. And if possible who is pro fireworks and who isn't. And if there are any pending firework bills have them listed there. That would be a good start then we can focus on each state.

Yup, thats something that would be a focus.

Northern Sky
December 5th, 2011, 06:28 PM
I think it's one of those things that I'd be "investing for my kids' futures"....as w/ all the safety moms who'd rather have someone else watch their kids constantly saying they are DANGEROUS...when they should try parenting and wondering WHY and HOW their "little angels" got ahold of fireworks which explicitly says 18+. Or just google "dumb shit kids do" or "kid fail"...and see how much dumb (and painful) crap they do already....

Anyways...at least a hundo/yr

I was thinking more on the lines of the good Doc here. We are by far the exception to the rule I have experienced people doing the "dumbest" untrained things. They say "Oh I didn't think of that", "It won't happen to me I've done it this way for years" or "I saw a video about this it was so funny". IN most cases, product is available to those with training. When I see videos of people in cities shooting fireworks off right next to houses cars and people and people cheering them on I thank GOD that isn't my kid getting sued to pay for a house or a car on fire.

Maybe things could be looser for people with training.

I have said many times "The least common of all the senses is common sense".

Have Fun. Be Safe.

nater219
December 5th, 2011, 06:29 PM
It would surely take the entire industry organizing together as well as lobbying on the State and Federal level. As far as raising the consumer limits, is that just a CPSC issue? How did the CPSC arrive at the comp limits they have already? Are they arbitrary in reaction to injuries and property damage from M-80s when they were legal? Or were there studies that decided minimal damage and injuries would result if there was misuse of 50mg crackers? Since modern fireworks are safer than they were when some of the regulations were passed, research would have to be done to prove safety. Of course there would still be the battle between the NFPA and the "What about the Children?" crusaders.

I don't think raising the comp limits on cakes beyond 500g would be any benefit if there were no changes to improve each shot. There are a handful of cakes that have both ends fused so you can easily daisy chain them. I don't see the harm in increasing the limits on color comps, I also think 1g aerial flash reports would be all that dangerous, but experiments would have to be made before presenting anything to the regulatory agencies.

scarp9603
December 5th, 2011, 07:37 PM
It would surely take the entire industry organizing together as well as lobbying on the State and Federal level. As far as raising the consumer limits, is that just a CPSC issue? How did the CPSC arrive at the comp limits they have already? Are they arbitrary in reaction to injuries and property damage from M-80s when they were legal? Or were there studies that decided minimal damage and injuries would result if there was misuse of 50mg crackers? Since modern fireworks are safer than they were when some of the regulations were passed, research would have to be done to prove safety. Of course there would still be the battle between the NFPA and the "What about the Children?" crusaders.

I don't think raising the comp limits on cakes beyond 500g would be any benefit if there were no changes to improve each shot. There are a handful of cakes that have both ends fused so you can easily daisy chain them. I don't see the harm in increasing the limits on color comps, I also think 1g aerial flash reports would be all that dangerous, but experiments would have to be made before presenting anything to the regulatory agencies.

Just think how much better a 1000g z-cake could be. A 1000g with16 60 gram shot could be awesome.

stuntborg
December 5th, 2011, 07:48 PM
Just think how much better a 1000g z-cake could be. A 1000g with16 60 gram shot could be awesome.

It would be...but the market for such a thing would be very limited. NOABs are a tough sell to start with. Your talking $150 bucks retail as a starting point for something like this. I just don't see a retail market for that price point.

Even as a hobbiest, it doesn't fit. Just to much money for one thing...course then I'll go and light an entire case of something :)

scarp9603
December 5th, 2011, 09:18 PM
It would be...but the market for such a thing would be very limited. NOABs are a tough sell to start with. Your talking $150 bucks retail as a starting point for something like this. I just don't see a retail market for that price point.

Even as a hobbiest, it doesn't fit. Just to much money for one thing...course then I'll go and light an entire case of something :)

Do you think it would be practical to increase the comp limits per tube and/or their maximum diameter?

stuntborg
December 5th, 2011, 09:25 PM
Do you think it would be practical to increase the comp limits per tube and/or their maximum diameter?

Don't know. NOABs are a tough sell to start with as are Z cakes. However I do sell some. Increasing the diameter wouldn't do anything without increasing the comp amount. Increasing the size of the tubes is also going to hit the shipping hard.

Who knows, I could be completely wrong. Sure others out there have a lot more expirence than I do.

AZ Pyro
December 6th, 2011, 04:29 PM
This is a fantastic idea. If it were like the NRA where members buy subscriptions for so much per year say $25-$35 and they would receive a newsletter or magazine detailing what's going on in congress with regards to fireworks etc. I'd join! And if the organization were to gain 2-5 million members there would be plenty of $$$ for lobbying.

nater219
December 6th, 2011, 04:38 PM
This is a fantastic idea. If it were like the NRA where members buy subscriptions for so much per year say $25-$35 and they would receive a newsletter or magazine detailing what's going on in congress with regards to fireworks etc. I'd join! And if the organization were to gain 2-5 million members there would be plenty of $$$ for lobbying.

Are there 2 million people in the US that care enough about fireworks to lobby for law changes, much less support the cause financially? I doubt it.

AZ Pyro
December 6th, 2011, 04:46 PM
Don't know! Are you positive there isn't?

stuntborg
December 6th, 2011, 04:49 PM
Value of fireworks imported last year 190 Million.
Say each person spent an average of 50 bucks.
3.8 million bought fireworks.
Assume 10% would be willing to spend $25 and you would be looking at slightly under a million bucks.
If you assume people spend more than 50 bucks then the numbers who bought anything are fewer. If you assume less than fifty bucks then the percentage of those willing to spend 25 are lower.
That number could be a wholesale number so the amounts would be about 3X. I think we are outnumbered by the gun toaters by about 10 to 1.

strobes
December 6th, 2011, 05:05 PM
Don't know! Are you positive there isn't? Yes we are positive, we meaning PGI atleast.
When you look at the amount of members of PGI and the regional clubs threwout the states, your looking at around 6000 members. Now add another 1000 PU members here ( im being super liberal with that number), your looking at 7K max.
People who are hardcore enough to join a fireworks lobby, would generally be members of above.

Now you have people who are really into pyro but not members of anything, but those numbers are gonna be small. Atleast small numbers for those willing to join a lobby.

nater219
December 6th, 2011, 05:16 PM
Don't know! Are you positive there isn't?

I don't think I'm being that negative, just realistic. Strobes and Stunt pretty much summed it up. We don't have the numbers like the NRA. I do agree with Strobes that if the groups we have and and stateside industry members organized we could make some positive changes.

Pyrohobie
December 6th, 2011, 08:07 PM
The Fireworks trade is basically different than anything with the NRA. They have the 2nd Amendment rights-we have the "peoples wants", and that is for just a few days a year.

They have 80 million members-business owners, hunters, gun lovers fighting for a common cause. We have a bunch of "hobbyists, business owners, 1.3 people, 1.4 people, and so on" who want what they want. Hell- we can't even agree many times what's good.

Strobes argues with GK about the APA-and now your trying to say everyone is going to agree to a common cause??? Whatever the APA(business) says is probably the way it is going to be-That is basically the facts and thier lobbyists are going to want. And now we have our lobbyists going against another fireworks lobbyists-save your money.

AZ Pyro
December 7th, 2011, 03:05 PM
Yes we are positive, we meaning PGI atleast.
When you look at the amount of members of PGI and the regional clubs threwout the states, your looking at around 6000 members. Now add another 1000 PU members here ( im being super liberal with that number), your looking at 7K max.
People who are hardcore enough to join a fireworks lobby, would generally be members of above.

Now you have people who are really into pyro but not members of anything, but those numbers are gonna be small. Atleast small numbers for those willing to join a lobby.

I don't know how many fireworks enthusiasts there are and am not sure anyone does. Like gun owners we have estimates, somewhere between 80 and 100 million gun owners, the NRA's membership is right at 5 million. If your an NRA member you probably don't agree with everything they do, I know I don't. I don't know anything about the PGI, NAPA, NFPA, NPA or any other pyro association therefore do not know what they do to promote fireworks, my guess is probably not much.