On a related thread, I noticed the old pro-Phantom/anti-Phantom argument has continued this year as in 2004 and 2005, with a new cast of characters. This gets tedious and is pointless, and I hope Colin will consider making this a stickie post at the top of this forum, so we don't have to go through the same nonsense in 2007.
The Argument
The argument usually starts with a newbie posting something like this:
"Wow, I just got back from Phantom and wow! What bargains! I got BOGO and a bunch of freebies and let me tell you all the great stuff I got for just $650."
And somebody else then replies along these lines:
"You stupid moron. Phantom sucks!"
Seventeen replies later, the battle lines are clearly drawn, feelings are hurt, names are called, etc. And this has been going on ever since I joined PyroU Forum. The arguments and name-calling are unnecessary and unhelpful, and I would like to try to clear things up. Let me start by making a few basic points:
1. Phantom has quality merchandise. Especially in terms of their 200-gram cakes like Emerald City, Rain of Fire, Blue-Ringed Willows and Silver Sonic Warhead, Phantom's merchandise has a good reputation, quality-wise. Their #500 Round Red Dahlia and the #500 "fluorescent" tube series are also highly praised, and my experience with Phantom shell kits has also been very good. So, if you're a pro-Phantom guy, nobody here is really arguing about the overall quality of their products -- it's good stuff.
2. Phantom prices are not bad ... for retail. When you figure in the BOGO and the freebies, Phantom's prices are roughly comparable to any other major fireworks retailer. So, again, pro-Phantom guys, nobody's criticizing Phantom for their overall pricing structure, as long as you're talking retail.
3. Phantom's color catalog is da bomb. Let's face it, the first time you saw that beautiful catalog, it was like the first time you saw Penthouse -- it's pyro-porn. So even if you're anti-Phantom, you've got to give them credit for the catalog.
4. The BOGO/freebie pitch is misleading. This, dear Phantom-lovers, is why some guys really hate Phantom. Today's Phantom-hater is probably a guy who, once upon a time, spent waaaayy too much money at Phantom, thinking to himself, "Wow! What great bargains! Buy One Get One Free!" Then, after they discover wholesale buying, they look back at their Phantom-buying days and feel like they got hustled and ripped off.
Calculating costs
Having once been a Phantom-lover -- who in July '04 needed some persuading to try wholesale buying for the first time -- I try not be harsh with Phantom-crazed newbies. I still occasionally buy Phantom stuff, and it's good stuff, and if money were no object, I might buy more of it. But assuming that you're not Bill Gates or Paris Hilton, you've got to learn to calculate the costs behind the BOGO/freebie regime aat Phantom.
To start with, there is no such thing as "free." The "Buy One Get One Free" slogan is just a psychologically appealing way of saying: "The price-per-item in the catalog is actually twice what we sell it for." As a sales gimmick, the BOGO encourages you to BUY MORE FIREWORKS, see? Because you can rationalize it to yourself by telling yourself you're getting a great bargain.
And the same is true of the "freebies." If you buy $650, you get a "free" $99.99 assortment (which, you are told, has an actual value of $161). So, suppose you had gone through the catalog and picked out $500 worth of stuff. You look at that next freebie and say to yourself, "Aw, why not? Spend another $150 and I'll get $100 more free!"
Why would Phantom give away "free" fireworks? Two words: Market share. If they can entice you into spending the maximum possible amount with them -- and then some -- Phantom can monopolize 100% of your fireworks budget. That means they can gain a competitive edge over rivals. It's the same reason Wal-Mart sells so cheap. It's Business 101: The bigger the business, the greater the efficiencies of scale. So you cut costs to the bone, sell cheap to grow the business, take a smaller margin of profit on a larger sales volume, enhancing the capital value of your business by increasing its market share.
But what does this mean to you, the fireworks consumer? It means that Phantom's pricing scheme (w/BOGO + freebies) makes it difficult for you to calculate your actual cost for any given item. Yeah, that cake is priced at $24.99, but you got BOGO, and then, because you spent over $250, they gave you a "free" 19-shot repeater ... and you got a cool T-shirt. So what did that $24.99 cake actually cost?
You don't know ... and that should bother you. Because all that really matters in the long run is: What did you pay, and what did you get?
Phantom vs. Wholesale: Direct comparisons
When you buy wholesale, you get more for your money -- period. Even with the BOGO and freebies, Phantom prices are at least twice as high (on a per-item basis) as wholesale. So if you're going to buy a lot of fireworks (e.g., over $500 a year), buying wholesale is definitely the way to go.
I'll make these comparisons using prices from Patriotic (http://www.patrioticfireworks.com/) (in Maryland), but you can consult the Dealer Directory (http://www.pyrouniverse.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=11) or ask around about the wholesale distributor nearest you.
For comparison's sake, we will use items from the Phantom catalog that we can match almost directly with items from Patriotic:
Whistling Blaster (http://www.patfire.com/imported/reloadables.htm) (#23007)
6-shell artillery kit, case of 12 kits, $39.19
72 shells / $39.19
= $0.54 per shell
So, even with BOGO, you see, the Phantom whistling shells cost more than 3 times what you would pay wholesale.
- - - --
Large Happy Planets (http://www.fireworks.com/fireworks_gallery/photo.asp?pid=172) (#G-013A, pg. 14 in 2006 catalog)
36-shot cake, $6.99
w/BOGO = 2 cakes / $6.99
= $3.50 per cake
Happy Fireworks, Large (http://www.patfire.com/imported/aerial_multi_shots.htm) (#19072)
36-shot cake, case of 24, $36.05
24 cakes / $36.05
= $1.50 per cake
So, even with BOGO, you're paying more than twice as much for the same 36-shot "Happy" cake at Phantom.
- - - - -
Wild West (Brothers Brand) (http://www.fireworks.com/fireworks_gallery/photo.asp?pid=387) (#G-101, p. 14 in 2006 catalog)
25-shot cake, $24.99
w/BOGO = 2 cakes / $24.99
= $12.50 per cake
Rodeo West (Glorious Brand) (http://www.patfire.com/imported/aerial_multi_shots.htm) (#19018)
25-shot cake, case of 12, $73.64
12 cakes / $73.64
= $6.14 per cake
Again, even with BOGO, you're paying more than twice as much for the same cake at Phantom, compared to wholesale pricing. The price advantages for wholesale are so large, no $99 "freebie" can make up for it.
Common objections
At this point in the argument, the Phantom buyer will typically raise these objections:
1. Don't I need a license or something to buy wholesale?
Generally, no. Policies vary from dealer to dealer, but nearly every wholesale dealer will sell to the ordinary pyro, provided you meet their general requirements, such as minimum purchases, advance orders, etc.
2. What about minimum purchase requirements?
This varies greatly. Patriotic's minimum is $200, which isn't a lot for a serious pyro. Other dealers have minimums of $1,000 or more.
3. But I don't want 12 of this and 24 of that!
Fine. Go in with two or three buddies and split cases. Use the PyroU forum to get in touch with other pyros in your area and form a buying group. The more the merrier (as long as you know you're dealing with guys you can trust). If you've got a lot of guys in your buying group, you can get almost the exact number of every item you want, just as if you were shopping at a retail store. Oh, and wholesalers sometimes have assorted cases (http://www.patfire.com/imported/cases.htm), and they sell assortments (http://www.patfire.com/usa/assortments.htm), too.
4. Yeah, but Phantom has freebies!
And retailers have volume discounts. For instance, at Patriotic, everything over $500 is 10% off regular wholesale, and everything over $1,000 is 15% off. If you pitch in with five or six other serious pyros to make a buy of $2,500 worth, your next purchase after that is 20% off.
5. Yeah, but Phantom's just 20 minutes from my house, what about the cost of traveling all the way to a wholesaler?
Good point. If you've got a retailer close by, the convenience factor is definitely there. And if it's a long drive to the nearest wholesale dealer, you've got to add the gas money to the total cost. That's another argument for joining up with a buying group. If you've got 6 guys going in together, and one of you has a truck with a camper top, or maybe a trailer, everybody can chip in together on the gas on a big order, and that will minimize your overall transportation costs.
Go wholesale for 2007
All these objections fade into significance, however, when you figure that you're buying at less than half of Phantom prices. Or, to put it another way, for the same amount of money, you'll get twice as much fireworks.
You're a newbie, and you spent way to much at Phantom this year and ... well, it's too late now, right? Don't sweat it. Enjoy your 2006 show, but just make up your mind to go wholesale for 2007 ... and start thinking about the possibilities.
Hmmm, if I get two cases of Excals and a full case of Critical Acclaim, and order 300 HDPE tubes from PyroGear .... then two cases of Amazing Ballet ....
GAUGE
June 19th, 2006, 06:23 PM
Great job on this. :) :) :)
Pyroman6000
June 19th, 2006, 06:52 PM
Good job, Bubba!
I have 1 other point to add here:
multiples of one item Now that I went and tried wholesale, I find myself thinking in terms of multiples. Especially with the small 200g cakes, doing groups or fronts is so much more impressive! For instance, I love the little 16 shotters from Bros and Glorious, like Super Stallion and Space Fantasy. For purposes of doing a show, however, shot singly, they fare badly against larger 200 gram cakes, and especially 500g 's and shells. Shoot em in groups and you bring back the WOW factor in a big way! Combine em with a rack or two of shells, and you have a multi-layer mini finale! This is because when you shoot several at once, you increase your rate of fire- the more cakes you shoot, the more shots going up at once!
I used this priciple to build a damn nice finale, for not too much money or effort! Fusing together 12. 25 shot cakes into 1 mega cake gave me a darn good approximation of a professional finale. Topped with 30 shells fused together, and ended with a 10 shot fan, and I blew MYSELF away! I used the best part of an assorted case, with a couple subs for more variety. It took me a lot less time and gave me better results, than if i were to try and fuse together 300 or so consumer shells, and try to get it to burn fast enough!
There is the secret to why we don't always mind getting a bunch of one item! Especially if it is one we like a lot, and know we will use a lot of. One other point in wholesale's favor- you don't necessarily have to shoot all of the items now! If you have a safe place to store them, they're there for other shoots, or as 1 thing you won't have to buy next time- freeing your $$ up for other items.
tn-dave
June 19th, 2006, 07:25 PM
Good post Bubba. You need to think about writing for a living :)
Pyroman makes a great point. Firing cakes in multiples makes a HUGE difference in making your show look more impressive.
The only cakes I won't be firing at least four of this year are the big 500g cakes like Amazing Ballet and Peacock.
pyro_casper_sgv
June 19th, 2006, 07:44 PM
Thank you for that post Bubba!
PyroBubba
June 19th, 2006, 07:44 PM
multiples of one item Now that I went and tried wholesale, I find myself thinking in terms of multiples. ...
There is the secret to why we don't always mind getting a bunch of one item! ... you don't necessarily have to shoot all of the items now! If you have a safe place to store them, they're there for other shoots, or as 1 thing you won't have to buy next time- freeing your $$ up for other items.
Agreed. And, oh, man, how I wish I had back the "leftover" stash I lost in the Great Raid of October '05! But live and learn ...
What you say about combos is right. You might want to try doing "W" angle combinations with 3 cakes. Or doing like we did on our finales and shooting from three stations spread out >50ft. apart.
Something I was going to add above: Buying cases of shells is extra-cool because you're always going to have leftovers. And after a while, you can build up a "reserve" of 100-200 "leftover" shells, so that any time somebody has something to celebrate, it's easy to load up some racks and shoot off 50 shells. Halloween, Super Bowl, birthdays, whatever. And since you're paying just 50-75 cents per shell, that's a pretty cheap treat.
Also: Saving up the leftover cardboard tubes to make "poor man's racks" is another cool thing about buying shell kits by the case.
Supdawg
June 19th, 2006, 09:02 PM
Good stuff as usual... :):D
Aric
June 19th, 2006, 09:32 PM
This is intelligence of the highest degree in journalism but there are some other points here which are concerning me.
Something is bothering me regarding going wholesale and this is getting into a troubling situation regarding the authorities because it is looking like I am going to be unable in obtaining a permission form signature because someone is needing connections for this here I am guessing?
Neighbors are some of the nosiest people and seeing this coming to a residential area is going to be attracting some attention and nothing good is going to be coming of this because I am thinking of Thomas!
Someone farthest from a wholesaler is going to be using shipping options and these are going to be costing a ridiculous amount of cash also! These are things concerning me here is all.
SEAHAWK
June 19th, 2006, 10:47 PM
Good post Bubba. You need to think about writing for a living :)
Didn't you help write a book bubba? Politics and stuff? I don't remember much about it.
PyroBubba
June 19th, 2006, 11:14 PM
Didn't you help write a book bubba? Politics and stuff? I don't remember much about it.
LOL ... since you asked:
DONKEY CONS (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1595550240/)
But check out our BUY TWO special! (http://donkeycons.blogspot.com/2006/02/annoy-liberal-sweet-deal.html)
Supdawg
June 19th, 2006, 11:17 PM
LOL ... since you asked:
DONKEY CONS (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1595550240/)
But check out our BUY TWO special! (http://donkeycons.blogspot.com/2006/02/annoy-liberal-sweet-deal.html)
I've been meaning to ask. How are sales doing?
Aric
June 20th, 2006, 12:37 AM
Can someone please be helping me regarding those problems on the last question?
Thanks again!
graybeard
June 20th, 2006, 05:12 AM
Aric, as to your question on buying wholesale; If you are in an illegal jurisdiction, and your backing a trailer up to your garage and unloading large quantities of goods, then you are asking for trouble. The more illegal material you have, the more trouble you are in, including a chance of having the Bomb Squad and the Police Chief put on a dog and pony show in your driveway, for the six o'clock news. The large quantity, will also go more toward actual charges being filed, as opposed to simple confiscation, as might happen when you get caught with a small quantity of items in a small backyard show on the 4th of July.
As for having goods shipped into an illegal jurisdiction as part of a wholesale buy; Aside from high shipping charges, your risk of legal problems are even higher. Many states have court injunctions against common carriers (trucking companies), requiring them to report all shipments of fireworks to local authorities. Your shipment of goods could arrive with a convoy of cop cars....film at eleven.
dubfish
June 20th, 2006, 07:03 AM
I have a question, been lurking for a while.....why do people who don't like, or shop at Phantom, spend so much time talking about why they don't like, or shop at Phantom. At some point, are you just talking to hear yourself talk? Before you get all emo with the, "I'm just trying to inform newbies....." etc....take a look at how much unsolicited advice is tossed around here.
Of course I am not talking about every member on this board, and I have the utmost respect for your pyro savvy, honestly. But come on, why be so persistent all the time? Not everyone holds the same fanatacism as you may. If some "Fourth of July Warrior" talks about a great deal they got at Phantom, what's the harm?
Aric
June 20th, 2006, 07:29 AM
One reason I am sticking with retail I am guessing? :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Dounut
June 20th, 2006, 08:27 AM
heh well i guess i'm one of those noobies that shops at phantom but i was thinknig about wholesale for '07. I live in MD just south of baltimore and was wondering where a good place to buy wholesale is around here. My budget's probably borderline at $500 though. I'd like it to be someplace I can drive to and pick up my goods.
JoeRatman
June 21st, 2006, 07:03 AM
I have a question, been lurking for a while.....why do people who don't like, or shop at Phantom, spend so much time talking about why they don't like, or shop at Phantom. At some point, are you just talking to hear yourself talk?
Well, I think it is because pyros want to help other pyros. Many of these people started out buying at Phantom. Then they became "enlightened" or "better educated" or "more experienced" and found other places and ways where they could purchase good fireworks for less money. Pyros tend to be rather "enthusiastic" about their hobby and rather "evangelistic" about it at times. I guess you have to be a "bit crazy" (excentric?) to do pyro. They can be pretty zealous about their favorite products (Excalls, Smoke and Mirros, Critical Acclaims, Mambas, etc.) and can get into rather heated discussion about various products. If you look on the forum, you will find that Pyros talk a lot about a lot pyro products and places and not just Phantom. But the operatative words are "talk alot". We can bore non-Pyro people rather quickly with our pyro talk. If a pyro finds a good product or good price he wants to let other Pyros know. By the same token, if they find something that is expensive or "not a good deal" or of poor quality, they want to let other pyros know as well. Generally, the attitude is "been there, done that and look over here because here is something better". They are trying to tell you what they learned so you don't have to actually waste time and money to experience what they experienced. Generally, I don't think the response is "condesending" or done with a "you stupid newbie" attitude or you "stupid sucker, you got screwed". It is more "avoid that, so you can avoid the bad experience I had."
pyrochris
June 21st, 2006, 09:28 AM
This is intelligence of the highest degree in journalism but there are some other points here which are concerning me.
Something is bothering me regarding going wholesale and this is getting into a troubling situation regarding the authorities because it is looking like I am going to be unable in obtaining a permission form signature because someone is needing connections for this here I am guessing?
Neighbors are some of the nosiest people and seeing this coming to a residential area is going to be attracting some attention and nothing good is going to be coming of this because I am thinking of Thomas!
Someone farthest from a wholesaler is going to be using shipping options and these are going to be costing a ridiculous amount of cash also! These are things concerning me here is all.
Shipping is free from where i buy from, and gets to you within a week tops.
Great post Bubba this should help clean up the phantom dispute.
shrapnel
June 21st, 2006, 09:37 AM
Chris, I seriously doubt the shipping is free. You are paying for it somewhere whether in creative pricing or hidden costs. How do their prices compare to Victory, Millers or Hales? I'm willing to bet your secret source that apperently you don't wish to share is about 20% higher than true wholesale, hence the free shipping.
MTPG13
June 21st, 2006, 10:37 AM
Chris, I seriously doubt the shipping is free. You are paying for it somewhere whether in creative pricing or hidden costs. How do their prices compare to Victory, Millers or Hales? I'm willing to bet your secret source that apperently you don't wish to share is about 20% higher than true wholesale, hence the free shipping.
He's talking about Superior Fireworks (http://www.superiorfireworks.com) wholesale. I've only ordered retail from them so I'm not sure how their wholesale is.
Matt
jman
June 21st, 2006, 12:07 PM
I have a question, been lurking for a while.....why do people who don't like, or shop at Phantom, spend so much time talking about why they don't like, or shop at Phantom. At some point, are you just talking to hear yourself talk? Before you get all emo with the, "I'm just trying to inform newbies....." etc....take a look at how much unsolicited advice is tossed around here.
Of course I am not talking about every member on this board, and I have the utmost respect for your pyro savvy, honestly. But come on, why be so persistent all the time? Not everyone holds the same fanatacism as you may. If some "Fourth of July Warrior" talks about a great deal they got at Phantom, what's the harm?
We just want to help guys like you see that there is a better way and better deals than phantom. Thats all. I used to bash phantom but dont anymore because it is pointless. I would personally only pay phantom prices if they were my last available source of fireworks. Like many, I buy wholesale and get great deals so I just cant give much for retail and still feel good about it. From what I've learned about phantom, they are on the frontline in the court systems defending all 1.4g consumer fireworks and they spend lots of money and work hard to keep them available to the american citizen. For that, I truely am grateful to their company. If someone thinks they get a great deal at phantom, thats fine with me, but if you post it on this forum for all of us hardcore pyros to see, we dont see it as a great deal at all instead we see a rip off and you really shouldnt expect a pat on the back. Example. I buy wholesale and where someone gives $75-$100 for a 500g cake, I get at least 2 cases consisting of 8 cakes for around $80-$90. So lets compare. Phantom buyer has 1 500g cake and no money left. Wholesale buyer has 8 500g cakes and 10-15 dollars to put back in his pocket. Now I know that retail isnt the same all over the USA and we here in the south are very lucky when it comes to fireworks and pricing. I can buy cakes like Roboshot, Aerial Dynamite, Blond Joke, BC Megatrons, and many many others for $21.88 retail all day long. Even our retail here is lower than alot of wholesale pricing in the USA. I know the guys out West give more wholesale than I do retail sometimes so proximity has alot to do with what you give also. Anyway, hope this helps you see the hardcore pyros side of it, BTW, this is meant as an informative post to try to help phantom folks see why some of us feel the way we do. This is in no way a lash back at you for your post so please dont take it that way. :)
DennyMo
June 21st, 2006, 12:36 PM
He's talking about Superior Fireworks (http://www.superiorfireworks.com) wholesale. I've only ordered retail from them so I'm not sure how their wholesale is.
Matt
Shipping there is free if you order $500+ retail, but I don't see any indication of free shipping at any $ level for wholesale. As for how they can afford to ship free, their retail price for "NOAB" (handy acronym, glad I finally found out what it stands for...) is roughly triple ATF's wholesale. I didn't do a complete comparison, but my spot checks showed their wholesale prices to be about double ATF's wholesale.
PyroInTheMaking
June 21st, 2006, 12:43 PM
heh well i guess i'm one of those noobies that shops at phantom but i was thinknig about wholesale for '07. I live in MD just south of baltimore and was wondering where a good place to buy wholesale is around here. My budget's probably borderline at $500 though. I'd like it to be someplace I can drive to and pick up my goods.
Haha, wholesale in Maryland, ask Bubba about that one. :brick: 8o
At least we can buy cases of fountains!!:rolleyes:
Aric
June 21st, 2006, 01:02 PM
This is showing the reasoning for some people being unable in going wholesale!
Consumer Fireworks in Maryland? 8o 8o
adultuser
June 22nd, 2006, 07:45 AM
This is showing the reasoning for some people being unable in going wholesale!
Consumer Fireworks in Maryland? 8o 8o
Actually, this is a great thread for newbies to the wholesale world.
I have been shooting displays with my best friend for over 15 years. We started out making the trip to Phantom about 12 years ago. The 10 hour round trip became a right of passage where we'd both be able to get together and spend some quality time together. The trip became as much a part of the tradition as the shoot on the 4th.
Over the past 3 years, we have debated the wholesale switch, but always found our way back to Phantom. The pros were we knew the product inside and out, the website and catalogue were addicting and the freebies always made us feel like we were getting a good deal. Finally, after last year's shoot we sat down and crunched the numbers. On our to do list, which we always compile on the 5th, we put in bold large letters- DO WHOLESALE, NOT PHANTOM DUE TO PRICE.
Well, I'm still going through withdrawal, but we stuck to our guns and didn't go to Phantom. We went to Maryland (5 hour round trip) and shopped at Elkton, then went to Patriotic. Our main concern was buying in bulk, we didn't think we could get enough of a variety. We quickly overcame that concern with the benefit of doubling cakes, and actually were surprised at the variety that we still ended up with. With an expenditure of roughly 1500.00, we have a great stash with plenty of stuff left for next year (we always say that and never seem to have anything left:lol: ), but this year it is very true.
Also, in our opinion, we found Patriotic to be a great place in MD with great deals and friendly service. We did not find the same about Elkton in the least.
So for us, we are now officially into wholesale and are big Patriotic fans. No excaliburs and we are trying smoke and mirrors, which happily seem to be popular here.
PyroBubba
June 22nd, 2006, 07:36 PM
Well, I think it is because pyros want to help other pyros. Many of these people started out buying at Phantom. Then they became "enlightened" or "better educated" or "more experienced" and found other places and ways where they could purchase good fireworks for less money. ...
Generally, I don't think the response is "condesending" or done with a "you stupid newbie" attitude or you "stupid sucker, you got screwed". It is more "avoid that, so you can avoid the bad experience I had."
Thanks for those remarks, Joe.
I repeat, I am not anti-Phantom. But the larger your annual fireworks budget, the greater your incentive to buy wholesale -- even if you still spend part of your budget at Phantom.
A Trip to Phantom
Last year, I specifically wanted a few Phantom products. They've got a wide variety of rockets, for instance, including Powerdomes and Blue Streaks, that I wanted to use in my racks, to supplement what I'd bought elsewhere: KAR76s, Glittering Willows, and MT 4 Beasts. I also wanted Emerald City & Ring of Fire cakes, plus several #500 tubes, including the RRDs, and I wanted some of Phantom's Small Festival Balls, which are much better than generic SFBs. Some friends also wanted some Phantom products, and so I went with a shopping list.
This is an important suggestion about Phantom shopping: Set a budget, make a list, and (try to) stick to it. Base your purchases on careful study of the products, including videos and reviews by trusted Pyro-buddies. If you go into Phantom without a list, you will spend more than you planned, and not necessarily get the most bang for your buck.
When I got to Phantom, however, I noticed that many other shoppers were shopping for fireworks the way my wife shops for clothes: "Oh, look at that! Isn't that pretty!" Or calling over a store employee (a seasonal hire who doesn't really know much about fireworks) to ask for recommendations. Other shoppers had a sales flier or catalog in their hands, and seemed to think that the prices advertised in these catalogs were super-duper-extra-special.
It is a sad thing to see such people roll their carts through the rocket aisle at Phantom -- people who don't know that Thundersticks and Blue Streaks are the best rocket values in the store. And then later I was standing by an entire shelf of Round Red Dahlia tubes -- the best tube on the market, IMHO -- and people were just rolling their carts right past me, and picking up some #200 and #300 tubes which had been negatively reviewed by several PUForum contributors.
Saddest of all, however, was as I was packing my carefully-selected Phantom purchases into my vehicle in the parking lot. I'd hear some commotion over by the store exit and look up to see, for instance, two guys loading multiple boxes of Phantom products into a big truck or SUV.
I could see they had spent $1,000, $1,500 or more, and it literally hurt me to know that, if those guys had spent the same amount at a wholesaler, they could have gotten more than twice the quantity of fireworks. Just go to any wholesaler's price list, calculate discounts and specials, and figure what you could get for $1,500 -- a similar amount would cost $3,000-$3,500 at Phantom! But every day in June, guys drive off the Phantom lot after making a $1,000+ purchase, and think they've gotten a tremendous bargain.
Not only that, but because such shoppers limited their shopping to a single retailer, their 4th of July show would not have Glorious-brand products like Gold Dust or Waterfall or Aquatini. Nor would they have WC Excalibur shells, or AFW High Stepper, or Amazing Ballet or Red Sky or Plum Crazy or Peacock or .... you see?
Pyros Help Pyros
If you're going to shoot a $1,000+ show for the 4th, it only makes sense to make at least some of your purchases wholesale. I still spent over $300 at Phantom last year, simply because they had some exclusive products I wanted -- and I just love the fun of visiting a big fireworks retail store.
So Joe Ratman, as usual, is exactly right: When a pyro urges you to investigate the possibility of buying wholesale, he is only trying to help you. This is what Pyro Universe is all about -- pyros helping pyros, motivated purely by a love of fireworks. Everything I know about fireworks I learned either on PU, or from friends I met through PU.
I never could have done anything like what I shot in July 2005, without the help of my many, many Pyro Buddies. On the day of my show, I ran out of quick visco for my finale boards, and a PU buddy drove to my house to deliver it. The camera operator? A PU buddy, who made a special trip for the occasion, and helped set up the finale stations -- as darkness was falling, the crowd was waiting, and I was in a state of near-panic.
Ask Jeff Wilson and some of the other old hands here how long it took them -- during my first few visits here, in summer 2004 -- to convince me that I should consider buying wholesale. I resisted it, simply because the idea was strange to me. But by December 2004, I was a wholesale-buying MANIAC!
I learned to trust my Pyro Buddies, and I therefore urge you to trust me when I tell you this:
The first time you unpack that vehicle, after buying your first few cases of wholesale fireworks, then empty your cases and pose a "stash photo" -- friend, when you look at that big stack of fireworks and say to yourself, "Wow, that only cost me $300!" -- you are going to be totally hooked on wholesale. I guarantee it!
To Pyro In the Making:
Patriotic does not sell to Maryland residents. And given my own experience, I would strongly suggest that you avoid possession of 1.4G in Maryland. But you have good friends or family members in other states who like fireworks. These out-of-state residents can buy as much as they want at Patriotic. And then you can go visit your out-of-state friends for the 4th of July, and pay them for the opportunity of shooting off their fireworks. (Such payment could even be made in advance of the purchase.)
So if you live in Maryland, your access to Patriotic would have to be secondary, involving people who do not live in Maryland. I'm sure you have out-of-state friends and family, but ... do they love fireworks? Would they drive to Maryland and buy fireworks by the case? If not, then you must make new friends -- out-of-state, firework-loving friends.
I wonder where you could make friends like that? Where in all the Universe could you find a Pyro friend? Try to think of such venue -- a Forum, if you will -- where you might make new friends who don't live in Maryland, but might be interested in purchasing fireworks from Patriotic.
And then, of course, because you would never violate the laws of the so-called "Free State," you would have to visit your out-of-state friends and shoot their fireworks.
Hypothetically, of course.
Aric
June 22nd, 2006, 07:48 PM
Pyrobubba,
This is sounding interesting but I am afraid of getting into a troubling situation such as the authorities busting me and this is no fun as I am sure someone here is able to be backing me up on these feelings?
I am guessing the reasoning I am using them so much is for their products standards. I am not thinking about their questionable manner of dealing products to people which are inexperienced in purchasing Consumer Fireworks and this is a reason for people being hateful of them which is understandable here.
Shopping there or other retailers is hilarious though when loading a basket to the ceiling and people are starting thinking someone is insane for purchasing this amount of products!
:lol: :lol:
PyroInTheMaking
June 22nd, 2006, 08:35 PM
To Pyro In the Making:
Patriotic does not sell to Maryland residents. And given my own experience, I would strongly suggest that you avoid possession of 1.4G in Maryland. But you have good friends or family members in other states who like fireworks. These out-of-state residents can buy as much as they want at Patriotic. And then you can go visit your out-of-state friends for the 4th of July, and pay them for the opportunity of shooting off their fireworks. (Such payment could even be made in advance of the purchase.)
So if you live in Maryland, your access to Patriotic would have to be secondary, involving people who do not live in Maryland. I'm sure you have out-of-state friends and family, but ... do they love fireworks? Would they drive to Maryland and buy fireworks by the case? If not, then you must make new friends -- out-of-state, firework-loving friends.
I wonder where you could make friends like that? Where in all the Universe could you find a Pyro friend? Try to think of such venue -- a Forum, if you will -- where you might make new friends who don't live in Maryland, but might be interested in purchasing fireworks from Patriotic.
And then, of course, because you would never violate the laws of the so-called "Free State," you would have to visit your out-of-state friends and shoot their fireworks.
Hypothetically, of course.
Hypothetically that is a great idea!
But it was not me who was talking about buying wholesale in Maryland, rather it was Dounut.
I know my boundaries, S&S only, except for my little venture to SC that might be happening.
Dounut
June 22nd, 2006, 09:47 PM
Heh well I like many of you in the past have never heard of the idea of buying wholesale until this year so i didnt know if it was a good idea with a budget of $500 or if it was even possible because of where i live :/
Or is it even a good idea at all to shoot off fireworks?!?! I don't know anymore!
kou
June 23rd, 2006, 12:02 AM
Some may think price comparisons are just Phantom versus wholesale or Phantom versus Jeff Wilson but it's really not. Phantom, in my quad-state area, is definitely a high priced and limited selection retailer if there ever was one. They're not the worst, but they are up there with other local stores I identify as "rip offs".
In Wisconsin, there's Uncle Sam less than 2 hours away that sells 500g $19-34 each, Victory 2.5 hours away $19-35 (retail) for 500 grammers, or Fireworks City Lomira with 500g cakes that outperform Phantom's starting at $29 each.
An hour away in Indiana, Boomtown of Dyer has 500g starting at $19; many other retailers have black box artillery kits starting as low as $4 per kit, #500 tubes starting at 8.50 each.
In Missouri, Boomlands sell 500g for $15-30 each and they have a selection like you've never seen.
If I expand to a 5th state, well ATF in Kentucky does sell single pieces at very very low retail prices although they are better known for their wholesale business.
To sum up this post, at least in the 4-5 states I buy fireworks, there are many cheaper retail options. So depending on where you are you might not have to go wholesale to get more bang for your buck. I mostly buy wholesale now, but each year I might drop 500-700 on retail just to test stuff or get in a quick fix. Almost none of that retail budget goes to Phantom, not because I have something against them but because there are better options everywhere I go.
Dounut
June 23rd, 2006, 05:21 PM
So, there's no where close to MD that I can buy wholesale unless I get someone from out of state to do it for me? Ok, well that sucks but it's do-able i guess. Thanks
Bruce K
June 27th, 2006, 06:50 PM
All these objections fade into significance, however, when you figure that you're buying at less than half of Phantom prices. Or, to put it another way, for the same amount of money, you'll get twice as much fireworks.
You're a newbie, and you spent way to much at Phantom this year and ... well, it's too late now, right? Don't sweat it. Enjoy your 2006 show, but just make up your mind to go wholesale for 2007 ... and start thinking about the possibilities.
Hmmm, if I get two cases of Excals and a full case of Critical Acclaim, and order 300 HDPE tubes from PyroGear .... then two cases of Amazing Ballet ....
Weel lets see I did this last year also, if you say that you can get me the items I want at 1/2 of what I pay at Phantom here is my list for next year. Please have it shiped to my home. The total will be $800, can you duplicate this list if not you do not then stop with the wholesale. These are the items I want, rewraps are fine, total with shipping to my house $800:
PHANDEMONIUM 205 SHOT 2
THE BEAST UNLEASHED 2
WICKEDLY AWSOME 2
NEW YORKER SALUTE FINALE 4
PYROTECHNIC MOTHERLODE 5
GUNS OF NAVARONNE 12 SHOTS 2
THERMOBARIC WARHEADS 2
VERTICAL VELOCITY 30 SHOTS 4
CRACK THE SKY 20 SHOTS 4
PHANTOM MISSILE BASE 225 SHOTS 12
CIRQUE DE PYROTECHIQUE 20 SHOTS 2
MASS DETONATION 19 SHOTS 2
CRITICAL BLAST 12 SHOTS 2
MAN-O-WAR 1
RAIN OF FIRE 1
UNTAMED RETROBUTION 1
RAPTUOR 1
PYROTECHNIC MOTHERLODE 1
MIGHTY COBRA 2
MINESHELL MAYHEM 1
#500 9 SHOT FLUORESCENT RACK (TUBES) 4
#500 RED, WHITE AND BLUE FINALE (1 rack OF 9 TUBES) 2
#500 COMET CLUSTER SHELL (1 tube) 2
#500 SILVER CRACKLING PALM TUBE 4
#500 RED WAVE TUBE 4
#300 GRUCCI GOLD GLITTER CROSSETTE TUBE 7
#200 GRUCCI GOLD WILLOW BARRAGE TUBE 6
#3OO GRUCCI GREEN NEON WAVE TUBE 1
#300 GRUCCI GOLD WILLOW TUBE 1
#200 GRUCCI CROWN BROCADE TUBE 2
100 SHOT MAGICAL BARRAGE 6
#5 BLUE WAVE TUBE 4
#5 RED CRACKEL SHELL 4
#5 THUNDER SHELL 8
SHAGADELIC MOJO 1
GARDEN IN SPRING 2
36 SHOT HAPPY PLANETS 4
DEF CON ALERT 2
100 SHOT SATURN BATTERY 2
25 SHOT SATURN BATTERY 2
BARBARIAN BLAST 2
7 SHOT CHINESE NEW YEAR 4
19 SHOT TOOT N TWIRL 4
ARTIC BLAST 1
WALLOPING WARHEADS 1
KALEIDOSCPE 1
PHANTOM ASSORTED FLORAL 4
NEWS TRANSMITTER 3
48 SHOT PEARL 1
96 SHOT PEARL 2
PHANTOM FIESTA 1
61 SHOT WHISTLE WHIRL 1
FESTIVAL BALLS MORTAR KIT 6 kits
COLOSSUS ARTILLERY SHELLS 1 kit
RADICAL RECOIL SHELLS 1 kit
ELECTRIC EELS 2 DOZ
6 OZ. ROCKETS 2 DOZ
ASSORTED ROCKETS 4 DOZ
BOTTLE ROCKETS 2 GROSS
BRICK OF FIRECRACKERS 3
Celebration Strip 2000 1
JoeRatman
June 28th, 2006, 08:50 AM
Please have it shiped to my home.
I don't understand why you are requiring that it be shipped to your home. Did you buy these retail items from Phantom last year and they were shipped to your home for $1600? Or did you drive to Phantom and buy it from one of their retail stores and spend $1600 for this list of items?
animeguru
June 28th, 2006, 09:48 AM
I like how you included the individual items from the New Yorker Assortment to make the list look a lot bigger.
Seriously though, one, no one is going to spec out $800 worth of fireworks for you... they're only suggesting that it is indeed possible to buy similar, if not identical items, from places other than Phantom... likely at a lower price, especially if you're spending that kind of money.
I shop there, but damn, I spend about $300 a year, total... for a year's worth of fireworks. If I went much higher, I'd seriously look into wholesale. As it is, I'm still looking at going to someplace other than Phantom next year solely for the change in products I'd be able to choose from.
St1dinoh
June 28th, 2006, 12:04 PM
Weel lets see I did this last year also, if you say that you can get me the items I want at 1/2 of what I pay at Phantom here is my list for next year. Please have it shiped to my home. The total will be $800, can you duplicate this list if not you do not then stop with the wholesale. These are the items I want, rewraps are fine, total with shipping to my house $800:
bunch of phantom stuff....
look bro....why so defensive. why is it that so many of you phantom faithfull get your panties in a wad when people are trying to help you? all these guys are saying is that a majority of people don't know about the wholesale angle, and %99 of the time, when people do discover wholesale, they never set foot in a phantom again.
here's my story....if you even care to be enlightened
i shopped at phantom exclusivly for years. mainly due to the shinny catalog syndrome, and the bogo-itis. for years i thought phantom was the best way to go....then i started doing my homework
so i spent 1200 bucks at phantom one year....got a ton of stuff....and yeah, i was happy.
but less than a year later i made my way up to big eagle in lansing. when i found out i can pay 10 bucks a piece for 500 grms that i payed 4x as much for at phantom.....i was real pissed off. not at phantom, but at myself. all it took was a little homework and i saved hundreds of dollars and wound up with 3 times as much pyro. the guy was real cool with me and we actually ended up chillin at the warehouse for an hour just bull****ting with each other about different effects, and different fuses and tubes....i wound up leaving there a new pyro. and then i found millers.
not only was millers in my back yard (even closer than phantom) but they have got to be some of the best people i've ever met in the industry. sometimes i go there just to hang out and shoot the sh*t. i spend more time chatting with the staff than i do loading up a truckload. this year it took quite a few trips in a stripped down mini van to haul it all. we didn't spend more tahn 1500 and when you see pictures of everything you'll crap yourself. there is just no way you can possible say phantom prices are even close to wholesale. once you find out how much you can save you'll be all over it. i swear to you man it's not like all of us are making this sh*t up. we are telling people this because we want to help people. most, if not all the "wholesale preachers" around here have been bitten by the purple ghost in the past. and now that we know better we are trying to prevent people from making the same mistake we all made in the past.
look man obvioulsy you are serious about your shows.....you've got quite a long list of stuuf there so you obviously like to shoot good shows, right? and you like pyro so much that you've even found yourself on an internet forum talking about fireworks....right? then why not take the next logical step and move up in the world. you can get at least 2x as much for your money and i'm sure you'd be a whole lot nicer once you figured all this out for yourself. in fact i'd put money on it that a year from now you'll remember this post, and then be astounded at just how foolish you were to give us a bunch of attitude for trying to help you.
just do the math for yourself and you'll find out what we are all talking about.
leeca
June 28th, 2006, 12:39 PM
Weel lets see I did this last year also, if you say that you can get me the items I want at 1/2 of what I pay at Phantom here is my list for next year. Please have it shiped to my home. The total will be $800, can you duplicate this list if not you do not then stop with the wholesale. These are the items I want, rewraps are fine, total with shipping to my house $800:
I can’t match you piece for piece, but how about this…
1- Major Combat (Task Force) 119 Fan cake
1- Z-Force 166 shot Z cake
2 -Big Impact 14 shot
4-Baja Bomber 16 shot
4-Major Riot 16 shot
12-City Crasher 25 shots
4- Vegas Baby Vegas 12 shot
4- Glorious Waterfall
8-Golden Brocade Bash 12 shot
12-Pyro Alert 25 Shot
12-Super Crackling Rainbow 25 shot
12- Hot, Hot, Hot 36 shot
12 boxes of 6 Critical Acclaim Mines
12 boxes of 6 shells Hammer kits
6 boxes of 12 shells Rambo Kids kits
12 Boxes of 6 shells Iron Revenger kits
6 500-Gram Super Fountain
Shopping Phantom Fireworks for this amount of products as a single person is the highest in pricing so using a group purchasing technique is the greatest choice here? One of our moderators here made this suggestion to me once if someone is unable to be going wholesale!
Furthermore, if someone is looking on spending the least and looking for Phantom Firework products a suggestion perhaps purchasing from BJ Alan Wholesale Fireworks with shipping as an option!
Brothers Fireworks and Phantom Fireworks are a couple choices of mine too because I have been luckiest using their products so these are just some suggestions from a friend here alright?
Good Luck!
DennyMo
June 28th, 2006, 04:55 PM
When his wife quit smoking, my former boss (who still smoked) told me there was no worse hell for a smoker than living with an ex-smoker. She was constantly on him to quit, buying him the gum and patches, showing him every article about the hazards, etc. Kinda parallels the discussion here, eh? :brick:
St1dinoh
June 28th, 2006, 06:11 PM
wow...what a good analogy.
even though the smoker knows he should quit, and he knows it's much better if he stops.....he just can't. no matter how much sense it makes to stop smoking he still looks for every excuse and justification to keep smoking.....man thats deep bro....thats deep :D
PyroSteamer
June 29th, 2006, 05:25 PM
Bruce, if you got all of that at phantom for 800 dollars, buy a lotto ticket. You got some luck
Aric
June 29th, 2006, 05:47 PM
This order is $800.00? I am guessing $1600.00?
k1ley4evr
July 5th, 2006, 11:44 PM
there was a buddy of mine that wanted me to go with him to pick up fireworks on the 3rd. I warned him ahead of time, but his mind was so set on going to phantom, even after i told him bout the bogo scam. So I was like ok well go to phantom, so that he could learn from his own mistakes. When we got there, he looked at the prices and was like wow kinda high. I just had to say "TOLD YOU SO!!!!!!!!" then we went by the festival balls and it was 1999 bogo, i told him "big daddy fireworks" was 4 for $20. And then we went by this assortment with most cakes, it was $350, big daddys was only $100 with even more stuff. So he was like damn we shouldve went over there. I just gave a giggle and was like its ok.... theres always next year. So he ended up getting the 22 tube assortment, which was 99.99 bogo and i splitted it with him so he wouldnt feel so bad. Im sure as hell glad I learned quick, my first year really buying alot of fireworks, spent 250 at phantom which was my first stop. then I found this great forum and found big daddys and I saved so much more. :)
pyrointheskyguy
July 6th, 2006, 09:42 AM
I apologize ahead of time for making a lengthy discussion lengthier. I've been itching to put my two cents in regarding buying at Phantom...
I am, what most of you would consider, a "newbie." During a trip to South Carolina in '05, I bought fireworks for the first time in many, many years. It was extremely gratifying to still be able to purchase this stuff. Being a resident of the northeast, it was great to be reminded that there are still pockets of freedom in our great country. Where the lives of it's citizens aren't "micro-managed" by a political climate.
In February of this year ('06), much to my surprise, I discovered that Pennsylvania had become the South Carolina of the north! Not only had Pennsylvania left their laws the status quo, but they actually went through the trouble of deregulation! For example, the motorcycle helmet law was recently reversed. My understanding is that in late '04, Pennsylvania eased the restriction on selling 1.4g to out-of-state purchasers.
Of all the permanent fireworks mega-stores and mom & pop stores that have popped up along the Delaware river, I personally think that Phantom is by far the best. I acknowledge that the base price, per item, is much more expensive than down south or even other Pennsylvania retailers (Fireworks Outlet in Tannersville, for instance). However, the product variety, quality (except for the cheaper reloadables and rockets), and especially BOGO and mix & match policy, make Phantom outstanding!
I fired a huge show last weekend for friends and family. Phantom cakes, repeaters and mortars were heavily represented. I had no more than two of a particular title in my show. The variety of effects and quality were EXCELLENT! I was told repeatedly that it looked like a "professional show."
Since we're all trying to fly under the radar in these parts and the necessity for extremely large quantities of one item is un-necessary, I don't find much use in buying wholesale. I did quite well, financially and acquiring variety, by mixing and matching items from about 6 or 7 different retailers (Phantom being the primary).
Thanx and enjoy!
St1dinoh
July 6th, 2006, 10:45 AM
I apologize ahead of time for making a lengthy discussion lengthier. I've been itching to put my two cents in regarding buying at Phantom...
I am, what most of you would consider, a "newbie." During a trip to South Carolina in '05, I bought fireworks for the first time in many, many years. It was extremely gratifying to still be able to purchase this stuff. Being a resident of the northeast, it was great to be reminded that there are still pockets of freedom in our great country. Where the lives of it's citizens aren't "micro-managed" by a political climate.
In February of this year ('06), much to my surprise, I discovered that Pennsylvania had become the South Carolina of the north! Not only had Pennsylvania left their laws the status quo, but they actually went through the trouble of deregulation! For example, the motorcycle helmet law was recently reversed.
My understanding is that in late '04, Pennsylvania eased the restriction on selling 1.4g to out-of-state purchasers. Of all the permanent fireworks mega-stores and mom & pop stores that have popped up along the Delaware river, I personally think that Phantom is by far the best. I acknowledge that the base price, per item, is much more expensive than down south or even other Pennsylvania retailers (Fireworks Depot in Tannersville, for instance). However, the product variety, quality (except for the cheaper reloadables and rockets), and especially BOGO and mix & match policy, make Phantom outstanding!
I fired a huge show last weekend for friends and family. Phantom cakes, repeaters and mortars were heavily represented. I had no more than two of a particular title in my show. The variety of effects and quality were EXCELLENT! I was told repeatedly that it looked like a "professional show."
Since we're all trying to fly under the radar in these parts and the necessity for extremely large quantities of one item is un-necessary, I don't find much use in buying wholesale. I did quite well, financially and acquiring variety, by mixing and matching items from about 6 or 7 different retailers (Phantom being the primary).
Thanx and enjoy!
i appreciate the fact that you and yours had a good show.
but what people don't seem to understand is that you could have had at least 4x the show for the same money, or saved at least %75 of the purchase price for the same ammount of works.
it's not that difficult to grasp....wholesale saves you at least %75 over phantom. if you decide to throw that back into the show, or into your pocket, thats your call. but either way...once you've seen the light, it's foolish to shop at phantom.
Dounut
July 6th, 2006, 11:21 AM
Well how bout this, some of us just can't buy wholesale anywhere near where we live :/ so we're more or less forced to buy retail from places like phantom.
St1dinoh
July 6th, 2006, 11:32 AM
not true.....you'd probably be amazed to find out that there is somewhere not that far from you that sells wholesale. even if they are 150 miles away...as long as you spend more than 3 hundred it's way more than worth it....and it's kinda a road trip/adventure.
just check the dealer location threads and i'd bet you'll find one closer than you think. like i said i was here for 2 years before i found out millers sold wholesale and they were 20 minutes from me.
Marshmaello
July 6th, 2006, 11:32 AM
"Why can't we all just get along?"
Spent years supporting Phantom. "Discovered" wholesale this year.
WE DID BOTH 8o
Got lots of great stuff wholesale (wfboom)
but still have our favorites we need to get from Phantom, eg.,
#500 gram Grucci Tubes
Emerald City
Silver Sonic
Blue Ringed Willows
and until we can find an accesible source for SnM and Excals we love the Grucci shells (NYHarbor) and the rewrapped( SnM ?) Silver Salutes
graybeard
July 8th, 2006, 09:01 AM
[Moderator: New topic, 'West coast wholesale' post's moved to buying fireworks section with new thread.]
Dirichlet
August 3rd, 2006, 09:54 AM
This is a great thread (although I'm bumping it a little on the late side)
I have been shopping at Phantom for years, not knowing about the advatages (existance, even) of wholesale purchasing. My display this past 4th was $1500 worth of Phantom products... I can only imagine the posibility of that money put into wholesale purchasing.
Thanks.
ThunderKing
August 26th, 2006, 11:33 AM
This is a great thread (although I'm bumping it a little on the late side)
I have been shopping at Phantom for years, not knowing about the advatages (existance, even) of wholesale purchasing. My display this past 4th was $1500 worth of Phantom products... I can only imagine the posibility of that money put into wholesale purchasing.
Thanks.
a person who has seen the light and understands that phantom isnt a great option
echostorm
September 26th, 2006, 07:55 PM
THE ULTIMATE LATE BUMP!
Long Time Pyro here with recent Wholesale and Phantom experience... Hope this helps someone.
My dad has been a Phantom fan for years and it wasn't till I took over our annual show last year that we bothered to do our homework.
We had been happy with Phantom... NewYork Harbor Fountains... Big Red Daliahs.... They have some beautiful pieces.
I said to myself.... the internet has to be good for somehing besides porn, right?
30 minutes later I was staring at Victory's wholesale catalog and comparing items to videos on pyroreview....
We took my dads $500 dollars (and $200 of my own) , and against his protest, tried wholesale for the first time.
The 4 day wait almost killed us... would we get ripped off? who were these guys? (Jeff ifrom Victory is the coolest guy ever btw) These crazy PyroU people... was it all a scam?
I drove 2 hours to a shipping terminal in East Indiana at 6 in the morning on july 3rd to pick up our stash ; checked the shipping order and loaded up.
I got home, Unpacked everything and my dad and i just kindof looked for a few minutes at eachother over a pile of fireworks 5x bigger than we had ever had.
Then we tested a cake.
The Baja Bomber. ( " WTF, are those parachutes? Cool! look how they hang in the sky like candles! Here comes 4 of something else... OMFGBBQ!" )
Our order from Victory is $1600 this year.
St1dinoh
September 27th, 2006, 11:22 AM
THE ULTIMATE LATE BUMP!
Long Time Pyro here with recent Wholesale and Phantom experience... Hope this helps someone.
My dad has been a Phantom fan for years and it wasn't till I took over our annual show last year that we bothered to do our homework.
We had been happy with Phantom... NewYork Harbor Fountains... Big Red Daliahs.... They have some beautiful pieces.
I said to myself.... the internet has to be good for somehing besides porn, right?
30 minutes later I was staring at Victory's wholesale catalog and comparing items to videos on pyroreview....
We took my dads $500 dollars (and $200 of my own) , and against his protest, tried wholesale for the first time.
The 4 day wait almost killed us... would we get ripped off? who were these guys? (Jeff ifrom Victory is the coolest guy ever btw) These crazy PyroU people... was it all a scam?
I drove 2 hours to a shipping terminal in East Indiana at 6 in the morning on july 3rd to pick up our stash ; checked the shipping order and loaded up.
I got home, Unpacked everything and my dad and i just kindof looked for a few minutes at eachother over a pile of fireworks 5x bigger than we had ever had.
Then we tested a cake.
The Baja Bomber. ( " WTF, are those parachutes? Cool! look how they hang in the sky like candles! Here comes 4 of something else... OMFGBBQ!" )
Our order from Victory is $1600 this year.
lol...did you just say "OMFGBBQ"???
hahaha
nobody here is gonna know what that means....well a few of us do.
anyway welcome to the addiction....
so would you recomend that people who shop phantom at least check into buyig wholesale, and at least try it out one year to see the difference???[/rehtorical question]
leeca
September 27th, 2006, 01:10 PM
I understand that OMFG part and I assume the BBQ was what happened when the parachutes started landing in the dry grass fields..LOL
yes , I recommend anyone at least try wholesale once... I know I was pretty happy.
The best advice I can give a newbie is order by early june at the latest... stuff gets sold out quickly around the 20th.
danmagicman
June 2nd, 2007, 10:46 PM
As for having goods shipped into an illegal jurisdiction as part of a wholesale buy; Aside from high shipping charges, your risk of legal problems are even higher. Many states have court injunctions against common carriers (trucking companies), requiring them to report all shipments of fireworks to local authorities. Your shipment of goods could arrive with a convoy of cop cars....film at eleven.
How do you know about this kind of stuff? As in, what courts do this...where have you seen that...etc. Just seems to be some very sensitive or specific information to me.
graybeard
June 3rd, 2007, 05:56 PM
How do you know about this kind of stuff?....Just seems to be some very sensitive or specific information to me.
There's no big secret here. Having been involved in the fireworks business one way or the other for the most part of the last 40 years, and having a love for fireworks, I follow news stories, try to keep up with what's going on, and discuss issues with people sharing the same interest. Long before Pyro U came on the scene, this information was general knowledge to those belonging to the various fireworks trade organizations. A legal tactic that has been used for decades in states that are anti fireworks, has been for the state Fire Marshal and Attorney General, to team up and go after companies that ship fireworks. As long ago as the 1980's, states like California and New York, have tried to shut down shipments into their state by getting court injunctions against various shippers. There was a time in California, for example, where the Fire Marshall there got a court injunction against UPS, that required them to report any shipments of fireworks entering the state on their trucks. That resulted in people being busted as soon as the truck drove away from their house. UPS quickly decided that the bad press would hurt their corporate image and stopped accepting shipments of fireworks into any state. Other shippers have been subject to the same method of enforcement over the years. With this in mind, I want to caution people that live where fireworks are illegal, against assuming that having fireworks shipped will be anonymous or go unnoticed by law enforcement.
danmagicman
June 3rd, 2007, 06:58 PM
There's no big secret here. Having been involved in the fireworks business one way or the other for the most part of the last 40 years, and having a love for fireworks, I follow news stories, try to keep up with what's going on, and discuss issues with people sharing the same interest. Long before Pyro U came on the scene, this information was general knowledge to those belonging to the various fireworks trade organizations. A legal tactic that has been used for decades in states that are anti fireworks, has been for the state Fire Marshal and Attorney General, to team up and go after companies that ship fireworks. As long ago as the 1980's, states like California and New York, have tried to shut down shipments into their state by getting court injunctions against various shippers. There was a time in California, for example, where the Fire Marshall there got a court injunction against UPS, that required them to report any shipments of fireworks entering the state on their trucks. That resulted in people being busted as soon as the truck drove away from their house. UPS quickly decided that the bad press would hurt their corporate image and stopped accepting shipments of fireworks into any state. Other shippers have been subject to the same method of enforcement over the years. With this in mind, I want to caution people that live where fireworks are illegal, against assuming that having fireworks shipped will be anonymous or go unnoticed by law enforcement.
Thanks for the background greybeard. Sometimes when people give advice it's like... "where are they getting this from." Good to know!
druglord
June 10th, 2007, 12:03 AM
I'm new to all this. And while I think it's great that all the pyros out there are trying to help us newbees, maybe a little bit of learning by our mistakes isn't such a bad way to go. It worked for you. Personally I'm kind of stubborn, and even though I'll pay attention to advice, in the end I'm probably going buy what and where I happened to like anyway. I live in Minnesota, and so it's fountains, spinners, and wheels for me. There are quite a few dealers not too far away in Wisconsin. I have used TNT which is in alot of tents here, and in Wisconsin have purchased Brothers, Shogun, World Class, Winco, Forward, Black Cat, Red Pearl, Great Grizzly, Cannon, and yes, even Phantom. All have fountains that I like and dislike, and I'm discovering that in the end, prices are pretty much in the ballpark with each other whether it's an individual price, or a little higher but BOGO. They all seem to end up pretty close. Either wayI sure am hving fun.
kingcarcas
June 11th, 2007, 08:46 PM
Good read, too bad i don't think there are wholesalers in Nevada or Arizona:eek:
pyrokid15
June 21st, 2007, 01:07 PM
I want wholesale this year but I don't know if there are any in Indiana that is minimum of about 400 dollars. If anyone knows of any in Indiana please reply.
DennyMo
June 25th, 2007, 07:30 PM
I want wholesale this year but I don't know if there are any in Indiana that is minimum of about 400 dollars. If anyone knows of any in Indiana please reply.Where in Indiana? Have you checked the Dealer Directory? Even if you can't find wholesale at this late date, you might find a retailer willing to cut you a discount for buying case lots.
MidwestPyro
June 26th, 2007, 09:48 AM
I got away from the purple ghost. I am no longer a $500 phantom purchaser. I have to thank everyone on here. Without you all encouraging everyone to give wholesale a shot. Made me want to give it a shot. So as we speak, I have an order in the making of atleast $800.
sheltonct
July 5th, 2007, 06:23 AM
never been to phantom and after reading 3 pages of this thread, it will be limited to the select itesms that we want and not any other...
that will be the reason for Georges..... :)
thanks,
sassbud
July 5th, 2007, 06:25 PM
Phantom stuff this year was not very good. Anyone have anything that was better than average? I had shagadellic mojo, rain of fire, emerald city, molotov cocktail and ssw. All were average at best.
FRB
July 5th, 2007, 07:04 PM
Phantom stuff this year was not very good. Anyone have anything that was better than average? I had shagadellic mojo, rain of fire, emerald city, molotov cocktail and ssw. All were average at best.
Had each of the above - we enjoyed them this year as much as last. No more though as wholesale next year for sure! I am sick to my stomach looking at the stashes some have here comparing to what I payed from Phantom. Rain of Fire was good as usual.
Hey I am not complaining though - had a great time!
pyro_casper_13
July 7th, 2007, 09:14 PM
Molotov Cocktail is such a great cake.
Thatsit
July 7th, 2007, 10:01 PM
If some "Fourth of July Warrior" talks about a great deal they got at Phantom, what's the harm?
I fully agree with that.....its all good....but the wholesale information is greatly appreciated! They are just happy they got some works...! And yes it is obvious that you will save on wholesale,,,,but there are a lot of stubborn pyros out there and they will see the light eventually. For smaller items or just some fun stuff, Phantom is cool....or if ya have the money....fine....but then get 2, 3, or 4 more than you usally would...why not...You take the free stuff from Phantom,,,,why not take the tons more for your money wholesale.....I really enjoyed this thread and it made me want to go blast my dead presidents all wholesale....(a.k.a. - Spend My Money...LOL).......really You all that live elsewhere are really lucky you all have the right to blast the heck outta your works,,,,,some people are very limited by the lame laws in place. I really enjoy looking at all the websites out there and just comparing prices and checking out the pictures and videos....so much fun to me. I really like the fun stuff, like the butterflies, spinners, smokes, jumping jacks, electric eels, bla bla bla.....stuff that is not too loud because you can mess around with it and not really bother anyone. But use the big dogs when needed. But like I said others on here live where you can blast all day long..LOL......I really appreciate all the different opinions and the time everyone took to post up on this thread. I learned a lot from the short time that I have been a member here. You guys are crazy man.....some of the stuff I see and read here is so cool and I hope you all dont take your hobby for granted......Looking at those supercenters in South Carolina makes me sick...LOL....those places are huge,,,,,,,That sheltons fireworks I believe it is......that is crazy...pallets of stuff everywhere...I would go crazy in a place like that......So all in all, it is only logical that you would buy wholesale, and yes in some instances it might not be possible for some to do,,,so buy retail.....thats fine...I have .....its all good.........I would really like to see some shooting sites open up around my way,,,I would buy wholesale and camp out all week long.....Blowing it up good......LOL...........Ive always been interested in fireworks, I used to watch Disneylands fireworks every night when I used to live right next to it.....I never got bored of watching them.....Well sorry for the rant...or the babbling.....Its just after reading this thread it got me excited and I want to just buy wholesale just to say....hey look what I got for this much.......LOL.......yah and compare stash pictures.....its all good fun.....thanks again to all for your thoughts........!! Thatsit!!!
mulligans
September 1st, 2007, 04:24 PM
molotov cocktail is not such a great cake anymore unfortunatly.hate to burst your bubble but pick some new ones up and see for yourself.would like to hear other opinions on this so i know its not just me. seemed much weaker.seemes like everytime people talk about how good or loud something is it changes. im keeping my mouth shut. why take chances? its too bad if the cpsc is responsible for this because im afraid to even talk about something i like.maybee im going a bit overboard but still it makes you think.
Pyroplegic
May 29th, 2008, 01:24 PM
So Im trying to convenience friends to go wholesale (patriotic) rather than phantom. when ive bought retail it's been small amounts ($3-500) @ fireworks superstore SC, so i dont know much about phantom. he claims he's been spending so much for so many years he's on a Gold list that gives him wholesale prices. is there such a list? does it compare to wholesale? is he just uneducated, or am I? short of making him read this entire thread, how can i easily convenience him to go with me, than on his own?
carguy07
May 29th, 2008, 01:43 PM
This is $700 last year using BOGO with "Premier Member" pricing nuff said.:rolleyes:
it's crazy how much different the prices are with phantom and with wholesale. retail is just not an option for me anymore, it just doesn't make any sense when there are so many wholesalers out there giving us such great deals.
Pyroplegic
May 29th, 2008, 02:34 PM
was your $1100 wholesale @ bigs?
k1ley4evr
May 29th, 2008, 03:21 PM
So Im trying to convenience friends to go wholesale (patriotic) rather than phantom. when ive bought retail it's been small amounts ($3-500) @ fireworks superstore SC, so i dont know much about phantom. he claims he's been spending so much for so many years he's on a Gold list that gives him wholesale prices. is there such a list? does it compare to wholesale? is he just uneducated, or am I? short of making him read this entire thread, how can i easily convenience him to go with me, than on his own?
I think your friend is full of it. I would not convince him at all. I would just go on the wholesale buy myself. Spend the same ammount that he will be spending at phantom, and then let his dumbass drool over your stash.
Pyro Nut
May 29th, 2008, 06:06 PM
About $850 at bigs and $250 at Lemas. Everything in brown boxes is from Bigs the loose stuff is from Lemas. Both were great to deal with.
Welcome to the other side!!!!!!:twisted:
Pyroplegic
May 30th, 2008, 09:59 AM
I think your friend is full of it. I would not convince him at all. I would just go on the wholesale buy myself. Spend the same ammount that he will be spending at phantom, and then let his dumbass drool over your stash.
this sounds like my plan if he wont come arround
St1dinoh
May 30th, 2008, 10:35 AM
this sounds like my plan if he wont come arround
just ask him whats the best price he can get on a 500 gram cake...
then show him something similar on your wholesale list.
if he can't understand simple marketing ploys and elementary math then there's no hope for him.
the price comparisons on 500 grams alone should convince him...
if he still doesn't get it then break outthe big guns and show him the price difference on cases of smaller stuff.
a case of 25 shot saturns wholesale vs phantom prices should seal the deal.
if not tell your friend i called him a dumbass :lol:
Jerm357
June 22nd, 2008, 01:03 PM
This is $700 last year using BOGO with "Premier Member" pricing nuff said.:rolleyes:
That cant be right, cuz this is what I got last year for $600.
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q237/Jerm357/DSCN0995.jpg
That's not a bad haul for $600 retail.
romanwarhelmet
July 30th, 2008, 03:11 PM
I think your friend is full of it. I would not convince him at all. I would just go on the wholesale buy myself. Spend the same ammount that he will be spending at phantom, and then let his dumbass drool over your stash.
So I am planning a trip to Pahrump and I am a newbie. I got my hands on some of the good stuff this 4rth and had a blast. Anyway being a newbie and how good the Phantom site is, I was planning on going, but after reading this stuff, why would I? Anyway, is there a place to get them wholesale in Pahrump? Or am I stuck at Phantom? I have to be honest, I like the fact that I can see videos on a lot of the stuff at phantom on their website. Makes me feel as though I know what I am buying.
upNsmoke
July 31st, 2008, 10:31 AM
These links might help a little until someone in that area chimes in. You can get an idea of what brands the store carries then check the gallery here for videos.
That's not a bad haul for $600 retail. Nice calendar, nice headlights :D
romanwarhelmet
July 31st, 2008, 03:28 PM
These links might help a little until someone in that area chimes in. You can get an idea of what brands the store carries then check the gallery here for videos.
I laugh when I read all the wolesale price vs retail price stuff. Almost anything is cheaper if you by bulk.
The question is how many of one item do you want or need and have room for. It's almost like buying a huge turkey forThanksgiving, just to save a few cents per pound. How many turkey sandwiches do you want to eat ?
If you go through enough fireworks to come out ahead buying wholesale, and have the money up front to do it, more power to you.
The average pyromaniac can't justify buying cases upon cases of fireworks for the few times a year they actually shot them off. If they could, they would. They are forced to spend extra buying retail. That is what keeps the retailers in business. But,in return for that extra money per item, they can pick and choose a larger variety of items. Variety is a good thing too !!!
Shop before you buy (wholesale or retail) to get the good prices. The internet saves gas and makes that easy now days. Have your list ready when you go to the store. You will save time and money.
RudyG
November 26th, 2008, 11:07 PM
I laugh when I read all the wolesale price vs retail price stuff. Almost anything is cheaper if you by bulk.
The question is how many of one item do you want or need and have room for. It's almost like buying a huge turkey forThanksgiving, just to save a few cents per pound. How many turkey sandwiches do you want to eat ?
If you go through enough fireworks to come out ahead buying wholesale, and have the money up front to do it, more power to you.
The average pyromaniac can't justify buying cases upon cases of fireworks for the few times a year they actually shot them off. If they could, they would. They are forced to spend extra buying retail. That is what keeps the retailers in business. But,in return for that extra money per item, they can pick and choose a larger variety of items. Variety is a good thing too !!!
Shop before you buy (wholesale or retail) to get the good prices. The internet saves gas and makes that easy now days. Have your list ready when you go to the store. You will save time and money.
Group buy...splits...enough said.
JoJo
November 27th, 2008, 01:34 AM
Group buy...splits...enough said.
Thats a lot of work. For me anyway.
stuntborg
November 27th, 2008, 08:46 AM
I laugh when I read all the wolesale price vs retail price stuff. Almost anything is cheaper if you by bulk.
The question is how many of one item do you want or need and have room for. It's almost like buying a huge turkey forThanksgiving, just to save a few cents per pound. How many turkey sandwiches do you want to eat ?
If you go through enough fireworks to come out ahead buying wholesale, and have the money up front to do it, more power to you.
The average pyromaniac can't justify buying cases upon cases of fireworks for the few times a year they actually shot them off. If they could, they would. They are forced to spend extra buying retail. That is what keeps the retailers in business. But,in return for that extra money per item, they can pick and choose a larger variety of items. Variety is a good thing too !!!
Shop before you buy (wholesale or retail) to get the good prices. The internet saves gas and makes that easy now days. Have your list ready when you go to the store. You will save time and money.
There is one problem with your comparison. We are not talking about saving a dime a pound or something like that. We are talking about saving 75%. So, in other words, I can buy a case of 500g packed 4/1 for the same price you can buy 1 of the same. We both go out and shoot our one cake and you would be done. I still have three for later when I get an itch. Last year cases of excals were selling for $140 (compared to $170 now :() A box of excals were selling for $70. So you could have bought two boxes for the same as a case. 200gs are a little different. You typically get 12 to 24 of those so its not quite as black and white. I suppose you could buy a couple retail but I have a hard time paying 20 bucks for matrix pyro when I pay 44 for a case of two solar flare.
lostfido
November 27th, 2008, 10:27 AM
Another thing about wholesale, find a pyro near you and split a couple of cases.
I have done this with members here for different reasons like trying different product and not wanting a whole case of the same thing.
If you do it right like we did with the "Rat Pack" you get a nice variety of cakes for about 70.00$
Paulyp41
November 27th, 2008, 10:35 AM
Wholesale pricing CAN'T be beat !!! Add to it the ability to meet people with similar interests and split cases is to me the cream of the crop. Phantom does have some items I wouldn't mind paying the extra $$$ but on a limited basis.
DoctorG
November 27th, 2008, 10:39 AM
** See Page 3 for updated numbers for comparison **
First, if this is his first post and it's a Tday, unless you've lurked for a long time, Tday is an odd time to be thinking of FWs. So, I'd guess you have a bit of the pyro in you.
With that off my chest, there are a LOT of decisions that go into whether it's a 'deal' or not.
1. When buying cases, sure you'll have left over, but some ppl's wives don't want that stuff sitting in the garage, basement, tool shed, etc....so they buy what they shoot. That alone can kill the deal.
2. Try convincing said wife that you're dropping 5 hundo on something that'll be gone in a night. Good luck w/ that one. He's probably more interested in getting that plasma which he'll have for years to come, not $500 each year
3. Depending on where one lives (and the price of gas, etc) means you have to overcome that extra cost in 'savings' just to break-even on your purchases. If you're dropping $100 in gas just to get to/from the place instead of some retail closer, you have to spend quite a bit to break-even
4. Not to burst your bubble Stunt, but 75% is assuming no BOGO or throw-ins which Phantom does do a lot of, more so around the holidays. Yes, WS is better than Retail even with throw-ins and "buy $250 and get this rocket assort FREE"
I don't know any cakes off-hand that Phantom offers that other places have (which I have a price list for) so I can't say what the exact %age(s) is/are. But, figure Molotov Cocktail is $30 at Phantom, they have an eternal BOGO coupon on their site, and give it instore most all the time unless they think ur a prick..and they'll "forget" to mention it I guess...Anyways...so that's $15 for a 19-shot cake w/ some pretty decent breaks (unless you were unlucky and got a watered down one, all mine were great). I would imagine if Lema's carried them(one can pray) it's be about $7.50 looking at other 16/19 shot 200g cakes. That'd be a 50% savings....if you buy $X.xx they'll throw in this or that....so say it's 40% savings...still very nice I agree....but....you have to spend $250 before you reach break-even to cover gas costs....go w/ a friend..and bam..much better.
That assumes my assumptions are right too. If you're an assortment buyer, the savings aren't as much over retail as they are with cakes. I've seen assrts phantom carries and sells for $299 selling WS for $165 according to their website...seemed a high WS price to me...but just what I saw a few weeks back.
Long story short, MANY factors, some out of your control, affect whether WS beats Retail or is an option for you.
I, personaly, wait for Phantom to throw out a 200g cake for $5 and pick a couple up...very nice...so I got 2 Molotov Cocktails for $10. That was pretty sweet. If I can get a friend to go with...I get 4 for $20...turbo sweet!! Too bad I end up picking up some Blue Streaks and kills the deal...but hey....I haven't come across them someplace else yet....course haven't made it to Bigs or Victory....
Happy T-day all!!
Wholesale pricing CAN'T be beat !!! Add to it the ability to meet people with similar interests and split cases is to me the cream of the crop. Phantom does have some items I wouldn't mind paying the extra $$$ but on a limited basis.
I, personaly, wait for Phantom to throw out a coupon for a 200g cake for $5 and pick a couple up...very nice...so I got 2 Molotov Cocktails for $10. That was pretty sweet.
That beats WS :)
Paulyp41
November 27th, 2008, 11:26 AM
wholesale is all the time when the phantom deals are good but on a once in a while basis. I do hear what your saying though!!
stuntborg
November 27th, 2008, 12:01 PM
4. Not to burst your bubble Stunt, but 75% is assuming no BOGO or throw-ins which Phantom does do a lot of, more so around the holidays. Yes, WS is better than Retail even with throw-ins and "buy $250 and get this rocket assort FREE"
Most retail operates on a 4X mark up. Maybe a little less for 500g stuff. However, don't be fooled by that bogo crap. 9 times out of 10 its a gimmick. Especially at Phantom. I have a BJ Allen wholesale list and it was still a 4X mark up.
An example:
Yea Baby Yea is listed at $43.99 on one of my retail places.
$53.78 on the wholesale list. To be fair, these are old prices but its about a 3.5 mark up when tax is factored in.
Not saying wholesale is for everyone, but most of the time you can buy an entire case of 500s for the same price as 1 piece retail.
If you really want to have fun though, look at the stuff packed one to one.
Pyro Swords....$79.99 retail or $35.99 wholesale. :)
wholesale is all the time when the phantom deals are good but on a once in a while basis. I do hear what your saying though!!
Could you rephrase this. I have no idea what you are trying to say. Sounds like gibberish.
leeca
November 27th, 2008, 12:14 PM
wholesale is all the time when the phantom deals are good but on a once in a while basis. I do hear what your saying though!!
he's just saying 24/7/365(ish) you can go in and buy Wholesale...whereas with Phantom's good deals happen only around some of the holidays. (Guessing you knew that tho :) )
Thanks for the comparison Stunt...if I'm reading correctly:
Pyro Swords....$79.99 retail or $35.99 wholesale.
So, assuming you get BOGO it'd be $40 each retail(assuming you wanted 2 to begin with) and save $4.00 by going WS?? I know the coupon I used when I did get to Phantom was BOGO on everything. I think I'm missing something. I don't know if 76 has BOGO and don't see Phantom carrying it. If I could find a piece phantom carries and some WS'er sells, that'd be a good test case.
Current price according to 76wholesale(76 fireworks) it is currently $75.06. I don't have their price lists and the food is about here...so will leave it at that.
stuntborg
November 27th, 2008, 01:36 PM
wholesale is all the time when the phantom deals are good but on a once in a while basis. I do hear what your saying though!!
I try not to be to much of a punctuation nazi but sometimes you just have to.
Wholesale is available all the time. Phantom deals are available only once in awhile.
Large Z cakes are typically packed 1:1 and don't have a 4X markup. Typically they are closer to 3X or sometimes only 2X. Pyro Swords was my example. Around here you can get it for $75 retail. Its packed 1:1. I can buy it buy the case of 1 for $35. You would not find this retail anywhere at a BOGO price of $75. It would more likely be $110 or $140.
I'll repeat...In most cases, BOGO is a scam. They have jacked up the prices to 6X wholesale or even 8X wholesale so that they can give you one free. Its a gimmick. There are exceptions to this rule but most of the time if you see two shops side by side, one offering BOGO and one doing straight prices, you will find that the piece price is about the same but you end up buying two of everything. Just because its on sale doesn't mean its a good buy.
Truthfully, comparing wholesale to retail is not a fair comparison. However, comparing retail to retail is. If you want to buy retail that cool, just find a local guy that treats you right. Phantom is the Kmart of fireworks. They like gimmicks.
DoctorG
November 27th, 2008, 01:59 PM
I try not to be to much of a punctuation nazi but sometimes you just have to.
LOL Thanks for the laugh.
Understood...After my food coma is over, I'll try to find something Phantom carries and I have on a list someplace to get an idea of price comparisons.
Oh..thanks for the Pyro Swords...watched a vid of that...have to say I like it...nice ... very nice.
Paulyp41
November 27th, 2008, 02:54 PM
he's just saying 24/7/365(ish) you can go in and buy Wholesale...whereas with Phantom's good deals happen only around some of the holidays. (Guessing you knew that tho :) )
Thanks for the comparison Stunt...if I'm reading correctly:
Pyro Swords....$79.99 retail or $35.99 wholesale.
So, assuming you get BOGO it'd be $40 each retail(assuming you wanted 2 to begin with) and save $4.00 by going WS?? I know the coupon I used when I did get to Phantom was BOGO on everything. I think I'm missing something. I don't know if 76 has BOGO and don't see Phantom carrying it. If I could find a piece phantom carries and some WS'er sells, that'd be a good test case.
Current price according to 76wholesale(76 fireworks) it is currently $75.06. I don't have their price lists and the food is about here...so will leave it at that.
I try not to be to much of a punctuation nazi but sometimes you just have to.
Wholesale is available all the time. Phantom deals are available only once in awhile.
Large Z cakes are typically packed 1:1 and don't have a 4X markup. Typically they are closer to 3X or sometimes only 2X. Pyro Swords was my example. Around here you can get it for $75 retail. Its packed 1:1. I can buy it buy the case of 1 for $35. You would not find this retail anywhere at a BOGO price of $75. It would more likely be $110 or $140.
I'll repeat...In most cases, BOGO is a scam. They have jacked up the prices to 6X wholesale or even 8X wholesale so that they can give you one free. Its a gimmick. There are exceptions to this rule but most of the time if you see two shops side by side, one offering BOGO and one doing straight prices, you will find that the piece price is about the same but you end up buying two of everything. Just because its on sale doesn't mean its a good buy.
Truthfully, comparing wholesale to retail is not a fair comparison. However, comparing retail to retail is. If you want to buy retail that cool, just find a local guy that treats you right. Phantom is the Kmart of fireworks. They like gimmicks.
Thank you drgoedken for explaining, and stuntborg, I apologize for not having my proper english skills on display.
stuntborg
November 27th, 2008, 02:57 PM
Molotov Cocktail $29.99 (from Phantom's website)
Wholesale from Victory $78.99 for 8.
That is about a 3X markup. Not to bad. If the shelf price is more than $29.99 then they are jacking up the prices so they can do BOGO. The website doesn't list any BOGO deals. Phantom stuff from victory isn't the best prices as I'm guessing they have to buy it wholesale drop shipped from Victory.
I couldn't find any larger cakes for comparisons.
Paulyp41
November 27th, 2008, 03:04 PM
Is this pyrouniverse or englishclassuniverse?
stuntborg
November 27th, 2008, 03:08 PM
wholesale is all the time when the phantom deals are good but on a once in a while basis. I do hear what your saying though!!
Is this pyrouniverse or englishclassuniverse?
How about its "Lets use at least enough punctuation so others can understand us?" Your post above makes absolutely no sense. Its all jumbled together. You will find people take you much more seriously if you take the time to at least attempt to be understood.
Paulyp41
November 27th, 2008, 03:23 PM
I am not on here to argue with people, do you sit there and bust peoples balls that don't speak english well too? The person I was responding to had no trouble understanding me. I have noticed lately that people are more into confrontation than being a close knit family of pyros.
stuntborg
November 27th, 2008, 03:48 PM
I am not on here to argue with people, do you sit there and bust peoples balls that don't speak english well too? The person I was responding to had no trouble understanding me. I have noticed lately that people are more into confrontation than being a close knit family of pyros.
Your message was posted on an open forum for public view. You did not quote anyone nor did you reference any names. Therefore, I concluded that you were just making a statement. Unfortunately, I could not understand what you had said. I'm willing to bet others had trouble as well. I asked you to rephrase so that we might understand. Whats rude in that? Sometimes its better to go back and read what you wrote to see if it makes sense.
As for being confrontational vs a close knit family of pyros....we are what we are. We are all individual people that share a common interest. That doesn't mean we have to agree on anything. The retail vs wholesale debate has been going on for years and will continue for years. Its just something to debate when you are waiting for your turkey to cook. I could argue with someone for weeks then enjoy doing a show with them.
Sizz...Boom...AHHH
November 27th, 2008, 04:34 PM
Popcorn Time.... Continue
DoctorG
November 27th, 2008, 04:42 PM
Thanks for the #s Stunt. So, I'll update my prev. post here.. and I'll say "that's crappy" I thought I saw the BOGO coupon there just a couple weeks ago when someone was asking about where they were...anyways I, for as sad as it makes me, am a "premiere member" who gets BOGO year-round for the next 3 yrs.
So figure Molotov Cocktail is $30 at Phantom, so that's $15 for a 19-shot cake w/ some pretty decent breaks (unless you were unlucky and got a watered down one, all mine were great). Victory carries a case-o-cakes for $78.99 for 8. That'd be $9.87375 for EACH cake. a 34% savings....if you buy $X.xx they'll throw in this or that....so say it's 30% savings...still very nice I agree....but....you have to spend $333.33 before you reach break-even to cover gas costs....go w/ a friend..and bam..much better.
I can't speculate what the avg casual celebrator spends, but I'd guess that's a little more than most and that's a BREAK EVEN point. Sure, you get a few buddies in the car/truck and that's easy...the catch...with 2 buddies in the truck, how much, at WS prices, can you fit in the vehicle??? You may dump one guy at the side of the road for some lonely trucker to pickup...but then you might have to give him some of your stash to forget about how he got home ;)
Oh yea..Stunt...I hate you and love you. Now that I know they have Molotov's at Victory....I may have to find an excuse to get up that way...(I hate driving...so I hate you...I love Molotov's..so I love you....in a platonic way tho...ha ha)
stuntborg
November 27th, 2008, 04:52 PM
??
I think thats the score :)
My turkey just got done. Time to eat.
DoctorG
November 27th, 2008, 04:59 PM
??
Sorry, it was a place-holder until I could copy/paste/update etc...for the ind. piece price for Molotov's at Victory
carguy07
November 27th, 2008, 07:37 PM
Mighty Cobra at Phantom BOGO = $5 each
Cobra Strike at Bigs wholesale = $1.30 each
AERIAL BARRAGE Assortment at Phantom BOGO = $8.25 each
61 Shot Assorted 6 Pack at Bigs wholesale = $2.56 each
UNTAMED RETRIBUTION at Phantom BOGO = $45 each
Uncle Sam's Answer at our favorite off the shelf wholesale place = $12.95 each
So lets just say I go to Phantom and BOGO 2 Cobras for $10 + the Aerial Barrage Assortment BOGO 12 cakes for $99 + 2 Untamed Retribution for $90 = $199. So I have 2 500gram cakes and 14 200gram cakes for $200.
Wholesale I get 12 cakes in the assortment for $30.72 + 24 in the Cobra case for $31.18 + 2 Uncle Sam's Answers for $25.90. So I have 36 200gram cakes and 2 500gram cakes for $87.80.
Same variety but I have 22 extra 200gram cakes and save over 50%.
Now split the 200gram cases to get even more variety. Do it once and you will never go back. (Yes, those are last years prices).
stuntborg
November 27th, 2008, 07:58 PM
If you get your stuff shipped to you then its only fair to consider the shipping as part of the price. If you drive then same issue. However, I have to drive to get anything. So, dinner at the outback for the wife and I easily runs $75 to $100 bucks. A pound of steak at the butchers runs 10 bucks. But then again, thats not really apples to apples is it.
Pyro Nut
November 27th, 2008, 08:23 PM
I remember getting my first "Color Catalog" from Phantom many, many years ago and their Bogo sale seemed priceless..... :oops:
Once the 4th drew a little closer, their sale went to, "Buy1 get 1 for .01", I thought, still not too bad....
Then I found this site.......:D
Look, wholesale may not be for everyone and there's no problem with that but, myself, I will never cross back over. There are some members who just want retail or just can't buy enough to warrant getting in on a group buy of just buying cases of a certain cake/mortar set. I understand where your coming from, but if you want to save some serious $$$$$, try wholesale just once.....
I promise, you won't regret it.....:drool:
darink300zx
November 28th, 2008, 05:38 AM
If I could find a piece phantom carries and some WS'er sells, that'd be a good test case.
How about Brothers Wild West? At phantom, 24.99, or 12.50 each basically.
ATF's ws price for Wild West is 59 dollars a case of 12, so that is basically 5 dollars a piece.
ATF's list is the only one I had handy, my others are on my other computer, but there may even be cheaper prices for this cake.
Darin.
DoctorG
November 28th, 2008, 06:19 AM
Stunt: As for gas...I wouldn't count the cost for me to drive to phantom as part of that "$100". Only the additional distance beyond my favorite store in the whole world...Phantom
Since I don't know the assortments the best, I'll have to assume the comparisons above are rewraps or the exact same cakes/assrtmnts.
Having said the above, I still stand by that wholesale is NOT for everyone. If you read my above posts you would see I laid out a few reasons as to WHY it may not work-out for everyone. Stunt reminded me of another.
1. If you live in a "safe and sane" state, you can't have them shipped to you...so driving has to be done, the additional mileage you drive, respective to what you'd have to drive to Phantom is the additional cost which I'd use for "break even" calculations.
2. Also, if you're lucky enough to have a few choices of wholesalers to pick from (and drive to) then you can find the lowest price comparison...but I'd challenge, just b/c you find a cake at wholesaler XYZ, if enough of their other items (that you want) aren't beating the wholesale price at another WS'er and you end up driving to the other WS'er, then using the price is a waste b/c unless you make the trip to that one, it's the wholesaler you GO TO, that matters.
For instance. I'd love to go to Victory b/c they have quite a wide range of selection of items they carry that Phantom carries, only at WS prices. When I compare some items from Victory to that of Lemas...I see Lema's prices are CONSISTENTLY cheaper. So, as much as I want that Molotov Cocktail, it seems the items I want don't justify me driving 7hrs to pay, on average, a higher price at Victory.
Yes, it will be a rare occurence to find a better 'deal' at Phantom over some WS'er that is a 12hr drive from me...but if you're only going to spend a couple hundred dollars, then as much as you might save or "get more" for the same money, you still have a net expenditure. Also, some ppl don't love a cake so much that they want 12 of them.
In a high %age of cases, WS is cheaper...it's ALWAYS cheaper if you just compare price to retail...but you have to look at the macro picture with one's finances to see if it makes sense for them. Many on this forum do shows and spends >$500 and yes, it makes sense for them...for the casual shooter...not always.
Sizz...Boom...AHHH
November 28th, 2008, 06:29 AM
Ok Boys. For Small purchases < than [insert amount here], Go BOGO. For larger purchase > than [insert amount here], go wholesale. Can we now stop [See Below}
Staff
November 28th, 2008, 06:48 AM
[Just a reminder to everyone, that the Phantom category was created as a place where Phantom enthusiasts can exchange information without fear of sniping and personal attacks. A number of comments were removed.]
Pyro Nut
November 28th, 2008, 09:31 PM
[Just a reminder to everyone, that the Phantom category was created as a place where Phantom enthusiasts can exchange information without fear of sniping and personal attacks. A number of comments were removed.]
AGREED!
and here's a KISS (keep it simple stupid).....:lolbash:
I think at one time or another, we've all been there, done that....
Hell, we all started out someplace. didn't we? :oops:
upNsmoke
November 29th, 2008, 10:49 AM
Everyone has their own situations for buying the way they do, but the bottom line IMO for buying is first your location, second is your budget, and third is what you want to buy and what you're buying it for.
How well you know whats around you and who operates them factors in to that. It doesn't hurt to ask for a better deal when you go in someplace as long as you're courteous. All they can say is no. Some places will sell single items at wholesale prices, some have no minimum as long as you buy by the case, some have discounts based on how much you spend, some give discounts for being a frequent customer and knowing who you are, some will give better deals the further away from the 4th of July and New Years, and on and on there's a lot of deals to be had out there if you ask and gather info.
Bottom line FOR ME is where i'm located. I'm fairly lucky, but not as lucky as some, and extremely luckier than some and that factors into my buying. My farthest drive if I want to drive and pick anything up is 5hrs from 5+ different wholesalers and my shortest drive is 1 hour to a wholesaler. I didn't want to drive last year so I had a 10ish case order (1 pallet) shipped for $100 which is only an additional $10 per case so better than retail by far but I was spending $600 total so it was justified now if I was spending $200 total that would only give me 2 cases after the $100 shipping charges which may or may not be justified just depends on what you want.
Now my shortest drive to a retailer is 20mins which happens to be Phantom and 30mins to another.
Phantom is good for being open year round, fireworks lobbying, and having many convienent locations to many people including myself. IF I just get an itch and I have nothing else left from buying wholesale or if I want to add a couple of items I gladly go to Phantom and i'm glad they are around, but typically if i'm going to be spending more than $50 I can't justify going there when all I have to drive is 40mins to pick up a case and because i'm a cheap ass pyro and i'll gladly take 12 of the same cakes over 4 different ones for the same price but that's just me :)
St1dinoh
December 4th, 2008, 01:41 PM
[Just a reminder to everyone, that the Phantom category was created as a place where Phantom enthusiasts can exchange information without fear of sniping and personal attacks. A number of comments were removed.]
i thought the phantom sub-cat was created to keep it out of the main forum? :D
JoeRatman
December 4th, 2008, 03:07 PM
Just a reminder to everyone, that the Phantom category was created as a place where Phantom enthusiasts can exchange information without fear of sniping and personal attacks. A number of comments were removed.
i thought the phantom sub-cat was created to keep it out of the main forum?
There were several reasons it was created. The two mentioned were in the list of reasons.
St1dinoh
December 4th, 2008, 03:24 PM
There were several reasons it was created. The two mentioned were in the list of reasons.
i know joe, i was just screwin around, hence the little emoticon. i'm glad this section exists, it keeps general fireworks clean and makes it tollerable to be here as we close in on the 4th.
without it, general pyro is intolerable from about june 1st through july 31st
CTPYRO180
December 18th, 2008, 02:22 PM
Phantom is putting on a good fight here in Connecticut, just to keep S&S legal. Due to a legislative error in the current fireworks law , its quite a battle between the Attorney Generals office and Phantom. The 2009 season is still up in the air on what will be legal in Connecticut. Legal fees are costing both sides thousands...
Looking at these forums some of you bash Phantom for their pricing and marketing tactics, but when push come to shove and the S*** hits the fan in legislation TNT and Phantom are the first to take the hit and then spend the dollars for the cause....
Without them not many states would be legal....
pyrolover69
June 30th, 2009, 09:50 AM
I just read through this thread and I have a couple of comments. I don't want to reignite the debate and for the most part I fully agree with your comments. I was, until this year, a loyal Phantom customer for most of this decade.
You are correct in saying that there were some very good deals in terms of retail purchases to be made at Phantom. And while BOGO, is of course a gimick, as the only thing you really need to do to obtain this offer is print the coupon, it still made it worth your while in conjuntion with the freebies you could obtain at various spending levels. Along with that, if you were a member of their premier club (which a one time purchase at a certain level qualified you for) you could receive deals for BOG2 on certain 500 gram products. All in all it was a pretty descent place to shop retail. There really just isn't any real comparison to wholesale buying.
That being said we come to the crux of the issue with Phantom, which is their steady increases in the pricing of their products over the past 3 years. In particular the past years increase was a lot, with some in excess of 20 dollars a unit increase for their 500 gram loads. The following is a list of some of 500 G and 200 G products I'm referring to.
Name 2008 Price 2009 Price BJ Alan Price
Whistling Phandemonium $159.99 $189.99 $65.00
180 Shot Barrage
#500 RED, WHITE AND BLUE FINALE $159.99 $189.99 $65.00
DA BOMB® $139.99 $159.99 $50.00
CIRQUE DE PYROTECHNIQUE® $109.99 $129.99 $37.50
GUNS OF NAVARONNE® $109.99 $129.99 $37.50
AERIAL AVALANCHE $69.99 $89.99 $22.50
CRACK THE SKY $69.99 $79.99 $21.25
WIZARD OF AHHHS® $69.99 $89.99 $22.50
GOLDEN PYRO-FUSION $59.99 $69.99 $16.67
BLUE RINGED WILLOWS $24.99 $29.99 $6.25
SILVER SONIC WARHEAD $24.99 $29.99 $6.67
GLITTERATOR® $19.99 $24.95 $5.63
RED, WHITE AND BOOM, 16 shot $14.99 $16.99 $4.28
All of these were excellent pieces and almost standard purchases for me every year. While I understand the need for any company to make a profit, just how much money do they need to make.
The real issue I have with Phantom is that their prices in comparison to other stores who also receive their stock from BJ Alan are in a lot of cases much higher.
Many of us have seen the trend of increasing prices over the past several years and to some extent that's just part of life so we really shouldn't complain. However, most retailers have been making a reasonable effort to keep the pricing fair for their clients. I'm not sure I can say the same for Phantom anymore.
I went somewhere else this year for the first time since 2000 and I found that while prices at retail outlets have increased slightly for this year, the increases at Phantom are well above those of most of the others.
Again, this is not to say that they don't have good product (because they do), nor is it to say that they don't give a away some good stuff or deals (again they do), what it comes down to is that Phantom just isn't doing the best they could do in comparison to other retail outlets.
I hope I haven't restarted the war, but I just wanted to say my piece.
Medictrode
July 11th, 2009, 12:05 AM
Yeah,the price increases are absurd,but its so many factors its hard to keep track of it all,I don't think Phantom is fully to blame.I mean even wholesale has gone up nearly 50% since 2001.Now I know you think I am crazy because I go way back to 2001,but of you do an internet archive search of say Patriotic fireworks,you will see a slow price increase all the way to 2007/08,then a huge spike for today's times. The good news is Patriotic,and other dealers are saying a possible decrease in price on some items,and no change in others..Let's all hope that's true..I hope everyone had an awesome 4th....:cool:
DJ-Sound
July 11th, 2009, 12:38 PM
Considering wholesale is about a 100% markup at the minimum, phantom is looking at a insane profit margin unless their operating expenses are truly out of of whack.
From my import inquiry quotes: Lock and loads cost $13 box, about $15 shipped to usa, $30 wholesale and... $200 at phantom. Even with bogo thats over 300% markup.
I don't blame them personally - as they are obviouslly good with marketing and selling at these high prices - but anyone willing to spend $500 or more really needs to be wholesaleing it.
Medictrode
July 14th, 2009, 10:29 PM
Interesting prices DJ,I figured the more premium shells were more than that,even wholesale..I would be very curious to see what those excalibur shells are at true wholesale.I know Phantom has been around since I was a kid(20+years),and I guess that's why all these other chain stores popped up in the northeast in recent years,the markup..:rolleyes:
Hillbilly Pyro
October 7th, 2009, 08:02 AM
Well, here is some good news for a change. Just coming back from the NFA convention, and the one common thing that the manufacturers were telling us was that the ocean freight charges would be lower this coming year. As much as 25 to 30 percent off off last years exorbitant pricing. This can only translate into lower prices both wholesale and consumer. Here"s hoping the trend continues.
jknepp1954
October 8th, 2009, 03:08 AM
Well, here is some good news for a change. Just coming back from the NFA convention, and the one common thing that the manufacturers were telling us was that the ocean freight charges would be lower this coming year. As much as 25 to 30 percent off off last years exorbitant pricing. This can only translate into lower prices both wholesale and consumer. Here"s hoping the trend continues.
I sure hope so, as shipping went UP 25% last year..... :brick:
jlmemt
October 16th, 2009, 11:30 PM
The shipping prices have been decreasing for most of the year. I haven't actually looked into it just lately.
The best news is that will help us in everything, not just pyro. :-)
CTPYRO180
January 7th, 2010, 04:47 PM
The shipping prices have been decreasing for most of the year. I haven't actually looked into it just lately.
The best news is that will help us in everything, not just pyro. :-)
Shipping is still the same prices... received 5 containers this year ...same prices as last season...
nickbuol
March 3rd, 2010, 10:53 PM
Wow great thread. My last shoot was 10 years ago and I shot off $6500 worth of Phantom fireworks. Hmmm, I wonder what that would have been wholesale. Maybe I don't want to figure it out. Thanks again for sharing. Hopefully, if I can get all of my ducks in a row, I'll be going wholesale.
Thanks again!
tim
March 4th, 2010, 09:48 AM
I did my first wholesale last year and its really alot easier than you might think.I brought at bigs, did a online order and it arrived at my house a week later thats it.
Superbang
March 4th, 2010, 11:21 AM
Wow great thread. My last shoot was 10 years ago and I shot off $6500 worth of Phantom fireworks. Hmmm, I wonder what that would have been wholesale. Maybe I don't want to figure it out. Thanks again for sharing. Hopefully, if I can get all of my ducks in a row, I'll be going wholesale.
Thanks again!
If you spend $6500 on wholesale you would need a very big trailer lol, VERY BIG ...
nickbuol
March 4th, 2010, 03:44 PM
If you spend $6500 on wholesale you would need a very big trailer lol, VERY BIG ...
Wouldn't THAT be fun to shoot. Anyway, no real bad experiences with Phantom over the years, and better prices that the "tents" around the 4th. Just looking to do what everyone around here raves about and try this wholesale thing out.
pyropeep
March 4th, 2010, 05:22 PM
Wouldn't THAT be fun to shoot. Anyway, no real bad experiences with Phantom over the years, and better prices that the "tents" around the 4th. Just looking to do what everyone around here raves about and try this wholesale thing out.
"try this wholesale thing out" son you have no idea of what is about to happen to you, go ahead and make that first wholesale purchase, I DARE YOU!!! Your life will never be the same after that.:cool::lol:8o:party::lolbash::beer::drool::pop:
davis050594
March 4th, 2010, 05:51 PM
"try this wholesale thing out" son you have no idea of what is about to happen to you, go ahead and make that first wholesale purchase, I DARE YOU!!! Your life will never be the same after that.:cool::lol:8o:party::lolbash::beer::drool::pop:
I'm in the same boat as him, about to make my first wholesale purchase. Except our budgets are about $6000 apart :lol:
mgh1980
March 4th, 2010, 06:01 PM
I'm in the same boat as him, about to make my first wholesale purchase. Except our budgets are about $6000 apart :lol:
Grasshopper, soon a huge chunk of your budget will be devoted to pyro, you'll even have a secret 'pyro fund' you hide from your significant other. Trust me!!
davis050594
March 4th, 2010, 06:33 PM
Grasshopper, soon a huge chunk of your budget will be devoted to pyro, you'll even have a secret 'pyro fund' you hide from your significant other. Trust me!!
Lol well I would contradict that but it is a disease and you have more experience with it.
nickbuol
March 4th, 2010, 06:41 PM
My problem is that I have too many expensive hobbies according to my wife. Fireworks, paintball (pricey when you do it a lot), R/C planes and helis (don't crash), home theater (nice gear that always needs upgrading to the latest technology), etc... I just need to win the lotto so that I can go nuts for about a year before I blow everything and end up bankrupt and homeless... :doh:
pyropeep
March 5th, 2010, 05:50 AM
My problem is that I have too many expensive hobbies according to my wife. Fireworks, paintball (pricey when you do it a lot), R/C planes and helis (don't crash), home theater (nice gear that always needs upgrading to the latest technology), etc... I just need to win the lotto so that I can go nuts for about a year before I blow everything and end up bankrupt and homeless... :doh:
actually it sounds like you have a pretty cool wife, to put up with all those hobbies.:D Give up all but the fireworks you could put on one hell of a show then.:lol:
AZhomer
March 6th, 2010, 01:31 PM
phantom cost too much. But, when wholesale is available, why would anyone be worried about retail?
blah45
June 17th, 2010, 02:42 PM
i have never personally been to phantom but from my point of view. They are doing nothing wrong but being a retail outlet. They have the right to sell at any price they like especially since the average fireworks user has no need for wholesale when they only spend a couple hundred tops and just want to have fun with a variety of stuff.
I worked at a boat dealership and we had "wholesale" pricing but in reality we just inflated the "retail " and bumped it down to where it should be. Should we be ridiculed because of it?