Is my rack safe?

[dmbjoker]

Last year i made my rack by screwing in the plugged mortars I got from pyrogear into 2x4's and screwing the 2x4's into plywood...Is that safe? I was going to do it again this year I want to have 2 pieces of plywood with 3 rows of 5 mortars on each..also I put a 2x4 under one end to angle it out over the water and away from my house..If thats not safe can someone give me an idea on how much it would cost to build a safe one?
Thanks

[graybeard]

It's not clear to me what you did in the way of screws ? Are you saying you drove screws into the plugs in the bottom of the mortars ? If you did that, you have weakened the strength of the plugs by driving screws into them, and that is not safe. Explain again where you drove the screws, and we will help you out with this.

[shrapnel]

It sounds like he has freestanding mortar tubes, held up only by a screw in the bottom?

[dmbjoker]

sorry...I predrilled holes on an angle through the bottom of the tube into the plug and into the 2x4 so the screw went through the tub, the plug and into the 2x4..I did 2 for each tube The 2x4's were screwed into a piece of plywood..

[graybeard]

O.K. got it! That was not a good thing, the screws could weaken the plugs. You want your mortar tubes to set freely in a framework with no screws or anything driven into the mortar itself. The mortar should fit snug in the framework, but be removable by tugging it out from the top. Get some good two part epoxy and fill the screw holes in the bases. They should be O.K. unless you can see a bad crack in the plug, where a screw hole went through.

If you're on a tight budget consider using sand buckets to hold your mortars, You burry your mortars 3/4 of their length in the buckets. You can easily adjust the angle of the mortars to a safe fallout area. The 'buckets' can be just about any sturdy container, big enough to hold the mortars and sand.

[pyrochris]

O.K. got it! That was not a good thing, the screws could weaken the plugs. You want your mortar tubes to set freely in a framework with no screws or anything driven into the mortar itself. The mortar should fit snug in the framework, but be removable by tugging it out from the top. Get some good two part epoxy and fill the screw holes in the bases. They should be O.K. unless you can see a bad crack in the plug, where a screw hole went through.

If you're on a tight budget consider using sand buckets to hold your mortars, You burry your mortars 3/4 of their length in the buckets. You can easily adjust the angle of the mortars to a safe fallout area. The 'buckets' can be just about any sturdy container, big enough to hold the mortars and sand.
Or he can make a milk crate rack too!

[dmbjoker]

ALright great thanks..I ended up throwing out my tubes last year, and just ordered 30 more from pyrogear..so I wont have to worry about the holes..I just gotta find somethin big enough to hold the sand ( i live on the bay so getting the sand shouldnt be a problem ;) )
ill check out some posts on building racks too maybe ill take a stab at it
Thanks Again!

[dmbjoker]

I have a wooden box that i want to fill with sand and put the tubes in..Can I tape them in rows of say 5 with duct tape because I have to re load 2 times.Normally I wait a few minutes, and turn them upside down incase anything is in there before I reload so i figured if i had them taped in groups of 5 it would be a little easier then taking each one out and putting it back

[graybeard]

dmbjoker, You're not going to want to pull your mortars out of the sand during a show. It takes some time and effort to get them burried back in the sand, and your working in the dark. 2 reloads per show of each mortar, is not going to allow a lot of build up of scrap in the bottom of the mortar, anywhere near the point where it diminishes lift. Just wait a few minutes before reloading. You can have cakes going during cool downs. The main concern is that you practice loading your mortars without ever letting any body part extend over the mouth of the mortars. Grouping the mortars with duct tape creates other safety issues. The group of taped mortars will be is like a big cake. Unless you taped them in a straight line, it would be dangerous to reload the tubes in the center of a bundle of hot mortars.

[dmbjoker]

Yea i would have done them in a straight line also makes it easier to see if 1 doesnt launch, but my only real concern was embers or something still on fire in the tube..I guess I will just wait a couple of minutes I figured I would do 2 straight rows so I can load them without reaching over any others
Thanks

[Pyroman6000]

I don't see why driving screws through a wood plug would weaken it- that's how most are attatched to the tube in the first place. The ones we build all have bolts through them now, because they don't snap as easily as screws.( to hold the plug in the mortar) ALL of my racks and ALL of the 1.3 racks i use are screwed to the base board of the rack. They have a pilot drilled strait up thru the base and into the plug, than a screw is used to attatch the mortar to the baseplate. Occasionally, I've seen a screw break, and we've had to put in a new one, but I've never seen it affect the plug. Drilling pilot holes greatly reduces the chances of cracking the plug.

Having all the tubes loose in the racks sounds like a pain in the a$$ to set up, tear down and transport/store. They'd constantly be falling out and working their way loose. Screwed together, the whole thing is 1 unit- they stack and store easily.

With the invention of racks, the nightmare of filling and emptying sand boxes should be laid to rest. Why beat up your guys with all that extra work? I'll do without the big, expensivemulti-break salami's that need the steel pipes that have to be dug in! Hoofing tons of racks is a pain, too, but I'll gladly trade that for shoveling sand or digging holes and reloading!!!!!Thanks to the new post 9/11 reclassifications, we dropped all 10 ans 12" shells entirely, so that's not an issue anymore either.

Anyhow, dmbjoker, it sounds like what you made was a variation of the poor man's rack. As long as the tubes are secure, you shouldn't have an issue. But, if you're going to this amount of trouble, why not just build racks? You're almost there! Just add end pieces and cross braces( slats). Single and double wides are easy to angle ( good idea angling your racks away from your audience!)- just tip em, and nail/screw the legs on. If you're going to screw the tubes into the racks- I'd go strait up through the bottom. You'll get a better bite on the wood, and the screw will last longer. Flush mount or counter sink them so they are even with the bottom of the board.

My advice is to put as little wood as possible across the broad side of the rack- just a 1x2 slat across the top on either side to hold the sides together. This reduces the amount of schrapnel produced if a tube has a catostrophic blowout. Screwing the tubes in means the rest of them aren't flying around randomly if the rack blows-possibly firing shells at your shooters or crowd.

Btw, why did you toss all your poly mortars last year???

[dmbjoker]

My brother used my racks to hold his fishing rods and threw them out 2 WEEKS AGO!!! I was so mad....Once I get my delivery I will put together some plans and builda rack
When racks like these are built are the tubes held down by nails or anything or are they able to pull out?

http://www.pyrouniverse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2535

http://www.pyrouniverse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2034

also the racks themselves they need to be attatched to some plywood or something right? to stabilize them

[Deweycoon]

When racks like these are built are the tubes held down by nails or anything or are they able to pull out?

http://www.pyrouniverse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2535


The racks in the shortcut are Pyrogear racks/mortars.The mortars are loose in the rack.

[graybeard]

Pyroman6000, My answer was directed to someone new at pyro using consumer sized mortars. I think there are very different considerations for the pro shooter as you are, and someone new to pyro. You indicate that you first drill pilot holes for the screws. A new guy may not think of that, and use a screw that is too big, cracking the wooden plug. If the screw has cracked the plug, or expanded it to the point of nearly cracking, then you obviously have a weakened mortar. The new guy may not understand the difference between a plugged mortar and the type that has a base that acts as an end cap, with no plug, and drive a screw across the base of that. There are consumer sized mortars with polymer end plugs and also some with clay end plugs. I am not confident that driving a screw through that material would be a safe thing to do. From the questions we see at this time of year, many new to pyro are confused and intimidated at the prospect of building their own mortar racks. Many do not posess the tools or the skill necessary to do their own construction. Many also do not have the time or the funds. In that case, sand buckets or small sand boxes would be perfect for their small consumer show. You mentioned filling sandboxes as being a "nightmare". The 1.3 outfit I shoot with, prefers using sand boxes made of heavy plywood for our larger mortars. We fill the sand into them with a skip loader or bobcat, so there is no 'nightmare' for us. The plywood boxes knock down flat and lay on the floor of the truck. They take up less than 1/4th of the space needed in an equivalent of individual mortar racks. The racks we use have the mortars removable, fitting snug, with no screws or bolts in the bases. That way, we can pull them for regular inspection or easy replacement, without messing with screws or bolts.....Graybeard.

[Pyroman6000]

My brother used my racks to hold his fishing rods and threw them out 2 WEEKS AGO!!! I was so mad....Once I get my delivery I will put together some plans and builda rack
When racks like these are built are the tubes held down by nails or anything or are they able to pull out?

http://www.pyrouniverse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2535

http://www.pyrouniverse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2034

also the racks themselves they need to be attatched to some plywood or something right? to stabilize them

Wow, give your bro a smack upside the head for us willya? Dang, talk about bad luck...

it really depends on who makes the rack as to whether or not the tubes are loose or fixed. As you can tell, opinions vary on that detail.

As far as stabilization goes, I believe the pyrogear ones come with legs or a base already attatched. But anyhow, The easiest way is to simply nail a "leg" onto the end of the rack using duplex nails ( they have 2 heads-one on top of the other, so they can be pulled back out more easily.) I use 14-16" long pieces of pallet wood ( 1x4 boards). You can use plywood triangles, 2x4's- or whatever other sturdy lumber you can get for cheap. Nail 1 to each end of the rack, accross the bottom, using 2 nails per leg. Voila' the rack is going nowhere. It takes some serious effort to tip over a rack stabilized like this. You can angle them a bit by simply leaning the rack over before you drive in the second nail. I would not go past 75-80 degrees unless you have a lot of empty space on that side. doing so will extend you fallout area on that side by a good bit, and could lead to dangerously low breaks if done to an extreme. One other tip- it's always a good idea to pound in nails towards the sides of the uprights. This keeps you from pounding a nail into one of your tubes, if the nails are a bit too long. Try to get fairly short nails for this- no more than 4" long.

Other guys swear by another simple method using eyebolts screwed into the uprights at the ends of the rack. You then drive a nice piece of rebar or some other stake through them and into the ground.

If all else fails, you can always brace them with cement blocks or bricks.

As far as screwing goes- ONLY run screws into wooden plugs! They will not hold in the clay and resin plugs in most fiberglass tubes, and will more than likely ruin the plug.

[dmbjoker]

Ok so i found some wood and put together 2 racks..They dont compare to some of the ones I see on here, but I just want to know 1-do they look safe and 2-how much I can angle them...
They arent screwed down to the plywood base yet, so I can position them anywhere if that matters (towards the front, back, middle) also I was going to angle it by screwing 2x4's along one end of the plywood base, but it doesnt seem to be that much of an angle, I have the open bay behind my house so I dont have to worry about hitting any houses or anything
Thanks!
475

[skole]

O.K. got it! That was not a good thing, the screws could weaken the plugs. You want your mortar tubes to set freely in a framework with no screws or anything driven into the mortar itself. The mortar should fit snug in the framework, but be removable by tugging it out from the top.

First please let me say to anyone else reading this that Greybeard is an experienced pyro and does know what he is talking about. I have learned a lot from him over the years. I just have a difference of opinion in this matter.

Greybeard, I must take issue with you on this point. There is no reason why a plug will be weakened by using a screw in it. If a hole is drilled into wood and then filled with metal how can that possibly weaken it.

I read your later comment to Pyroman6000 about someone inexperienced not knowing about drilling ect. Why not just emphasize the need for a predrilled hole? As far as that is concerned, I just don’t see why adding some width, (a screws width) into wood that is confined into a given space can weaken the wood. Sure, it might bulge the tube some but I just don’t see a weakness in the plug developing.

You stated that in 1.3 nothing is screwed into the plugs. This facilitates easy removal inspection and replacement. I completely agree with this. However the difference between 1.3 and 1.4 amounts of composition is substantial. Those of us fortunate enough to be involved in the 1.3 side of things realize that a blown tube/rack/sets of racks, is not that uncommon. But, I have yet to blow a tube using 1.4, unless I purposely turned a shell upside down. I just don't feel that blowing a tube in 1.4 is anywhere near as likely as blowing one using 1.3.

I respect you more than you realize. I hate to disagree with you at all, and disagreeing with publicly is a little painful. I just felt that the new guys here needed to understand that there was more than one side to this particular coin.

Shane

[graybeard]

Skole, why do you need to run screws into the plugs ? The standard and proven way to mount consumer mortars in racks is a snug fit with no screws into the mortars. How do you clean one of these recently popular, giant multi shot racks made of heavy boards, if the mortars are screwed in ? I guess two guys turn the whole rack over and shake it for a while. If your mortars are easily removable you can clean and or replace them simply by pulling them out. Here we are a couple of weeks before the 4th and a lot of inexperienced new guys are building racks, and trying to get them done in time. Many do not have woodworking skills or good tools. Why make this more complicated than it has to be ? If you don't get into a careful explanation of just how to run the screws and pilot holes, how will the new guy do it. Cross ways ? Diagonaly ? Straight up from the bottom ? What size screw is best for a 1.75 mortar ? Can we be sure that all of the mortars out there have a good quality hardwood plug? Again, what about clay and polymer plugs? If you're running a screw into the plug of the mortar, then I presume that you are also running the screw through the base of the rack. that means you have a line of pilot holes in the bottom of the rack. Some guys may not be using real good wood and the line of screws will create a line of weakness in the wood that is prone to cracking because the line of pilot holes follow the grain of the wood in your base board. The base of the rack is where all of the recoil is absorbed when the mortars fire. A blow out from an upside down shell occurs at the bottom of the mortar and the base board of the rack is also where all the recoil force is absorbed when the shells lift. Why compromise the strength of your baseboard with a line of unecessary screws ? With unscrewed mortars, should you have a hang fired shell in the bottom of a tube you can wait a half hour, flood the tube, carefully remove the mortar holding the shell, and easily and safely dump the shell into your burn pit. If your tube is screwed into the rack, you're back into that situation where two guys have to turn the whole rack over and shake it till the shell falls out. If you have racks already built with screwed down mortars, I would say, don't worry about it; But it you are building new racks, leave your tubes so they are easily removable, and know you have a safer rack....Graybeard.

[Pyroman6000]

I would stay away from using OSB ( particle board)for racks- that stuff just wasn't made for this application. It also does not stand up well to weather, and repeated shocks- these tend to make it crumble. Make sure you inspect those racks well before and after every shoot to make sure the particle board isn't breaking up. Plywood, or good quality lumber is a much better choice. I like pallet wood- it's cheap, and tough as nails ( if you've ever tried to pull one apart, you know what I mean!)

As for your question about angling, don't forget, a small angle on the ground translates to a bigger angle 100 or so feet up. That 2x4 should work fine. Just make sure the plywood won't flex too much, or the rack will bounce around, and maybe off! Better yet, with the nice boxes you built, why put them on plywood at all? Just angle the box, and save the plywood for cake boards!

You just stated some of my biggest objections to the hyowge 5 million shot racks, Greybeard! A) how the heck do you clean them? B) how do you remove a shell that burned the fuse but didn't leave? C) how do you move the darn thing? It's heavy and awkward.

To this, I'd add: What happens if you blow a tube in the middle mid show? You just lost that whole bank of shells for the show! If you are hand lighting, you either have to reach over a loaded tube, or over a hot tube which may or may not have an unlaunched shell cooking away in it to hit one of the middle tubes. Neither of those options is accepteble.

Personally, I prefer single row racks, or at the most double row. Easy to carry and store, maximum flexibility ( for fronts, angles, etc), and, if you have a blow out, you only lose 9 ( or 19)shells max from your show! Plus, cleanout is a snap- just turn it upside down. ( or make yourself a cleanout stick) No reaching over loaded or hot tubes, either.

I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree on the subject of screwing tubes in, Greybeard. My biggest concern is safety based too: What happens if the rack blows open- you now have a whole bunch of LOOSE tubes flopping around. There is a very good chance some will be loaded, and they could also be lit. You could have shells fired at our audience, your shooters, other parts of your show, or other bad places ( your neighbor's new vette, for example!)

Here's an idea for Colin. Why not make a rack building tutorial, emphasizing all of our concerns, and the accumlated wisdom of all of us and make it a sticky? Everything from wood choice to layout to hardware, and tools/methods needed. I'd also cover stabilization, safety concerns, cleanout sticks, storage, the works. This way, casual readers and new members with rack questions will see this first and have most of their questions answered. Building racks for displays is no casual project.

[Spyder207]

I just completed building my first angled rack (Thanks for the details on Pyro Reveiw Johnny!) and ran into an issue. Some of my fiberglass tubes are odd shaped or wider than expected and had to be forced into the rack. Is this going to be a problem? I see above where everyone says they should be loose and I do not need these flying apart during my show.:brick:

[dmbjoker]

I was gonna put them on the plywood bc I figured it would be more stable...If I just run a 2x4 under one end of the boxes, should I have it come out like a foot or two on both sides? Maybe put a cinder block on it to? Also if the tubes bounce higher than 4 inches it could get caught on the bottom 2x4 and could possibly block part of the tube next to it, should I Put something where the gaps are in between the 2x4's so if they do bounce they go right up and down?
Thanks Again