Buying Mortars

[firework12]

I know that there are other threads about this but there are always too many different answers. I am planning to make my first mortar rack for the upcoming fourth and am going to purchase some HDPE from pyrogear. I am going to buy the pre-plugged mortars. I would like to know what size I should get. The choices are 12" and 15". I want to get the safest one. Please help me!

[RudyG]

I've bought from pyrogear before. Get the 12" mortars. I've shot one to four break shells from them with no problems. If you get the 15" you may have some shells with too short fuses.

[firework12]

Would a 15" make any safety difference?

[MNPyro]

As for safety, either size works, pyrogear wouldn't sell, nor would any other HDPE/Fiberglass dealer sell 12" mortars if there was a safety issue with them.

The difference, supposeably, is in height of the shell. But, as Rudy said, he has never experienced a problem.

Now, not saying that you won't using 3 or 4 break shells, as it is how tight the shell in the tube that makes the biggest difference.

MNPyro

[firework12]

So, if I am planning on shooting 1-4 break shells, which length should I get?

[RudyG]

Get the 12" mortars and save some money. Then take that money and get better shells. That makes the most difference.

[firework12]

Thanks!
I think I am just going to buy the 5-shot premade rack.

[thecuch]

Buying a premade rack is always great - but check out some of the cool racks that you could build--- www.pyroreview.com (gallery section) most are real easy to make - w/supplies from the local hardware store - except the tubes of course...

[area323]

I noticed higher altitude shooting out of 15" mortars and a louder thump.
just my 2 cents.

[jokerman]

I ordered 20 hdpe tubes with plugs from pyrogear and they came pretty quick. The only thing strange is that they are FILTHY. They actually have mud on them and the inside and outs have a layer of dirt thatat looks like they were picked up out of a mud puddle and put into the box. It's not a disaster since I guess I can clean them and I don't need them to be VERY clean or anything, but c'mon! Is this typical?

[shrapnel]

Depends, are you going to put them on the mantle for display or are you going to shoot fireworks out of them and get them covered in powder residue after one use? They are doing a great job of getting their product to us at a reasonable price, washing the pipes would simply add to the end users cost. I know when most of their mortars are shipped they have the shreds still attatched from cutting which bothered me too at first, you can either run a knife around the edge or shoot a couple shells out of them and it's gone. I'v shopped and no one comes close to their mortars in pricing and they perform beautifully.

[MTPG13]

I have bought a premade 5 shot HDPE rack from www.pyrogear.net and it is constructed very well. My tubes still had the shreds still attached from cutting but what can you do. Overall, I would recommend them for their prices, quality HDPE tubes, and racks.

Matt

[Li Fung That]

I just received my order of 27ea 15 inch tubes in 3 days form Pyro Gear. What amazing service. They will make my milk crate rack of 25 w/two subs. I ordered the 15inch tubes, that will give Rudy something to do, he can splice all the fuses that are a little too short with me while we talk shop.

Thanks in advance Rudy.

[Supdawg]

Depends, are you going to put them on the mantle for display or are you going to shoot fireworks out of them and get them covered in powder residue after one use? They are doing a great job of getting their product to us at a reasonable price, washing the pipes would simply add to the end users cost. I know when most of their mortars are shipped they have the shreds still attatched from cutting which bothered me too at first, you can either run a knife around the edge or shoot a couple shells out of them and it's gone. I'v shopped and no one comes close to their mortars in pricing and they perform beautifully.


I had a big post about this subject written, but as I go to post it the website goes down and I lose it. To make a long story short, the tubes should be clean. That is a basic requirement of almost every product in the world. You wouldn't sell dirty items at a retail store, so doing so over the internet is my opinion not a good business decision.

What it boils down to is this:

These specifications should be based primarily on 'what do users need'. To support this, it is useful to think both in terms of "must have", "need" and "want" as a simple way of classifying requirements. Alternatively, requirements can be viewed from the users perspective:

"basic attributes" - these are fundamental and must be present
"linear attributes" - customer delight will increases with improved levels of execution
"exciter/delighter attributes" - surprising features, for which the customer may pay a premium

Having a clean product is not what I consider an "exciter/delighter attribute". I expect stuff I buy to be clean. If it is truly is an issue of cost, most people would say that you should include the price of "cleaning" them into the price of the product.

[pyrochris]

Depends, are you going to put them on the mantle for display or are you going to shoot fireworks out of them and get them covered in powder residue after one use? They are doing a great job of getting their product to us at a reasonable price, washing the pipes would simply add to the end users cost. I know when most of their mortars are shipped they have the shreds still attatched from cutting which bothered me too at first, you can either run a knife around the edge or shoot a couple shells out of them and it's gone. I'v shopped and no one comes close to their mortars in pricing and they perform beautifully.
YEs i noticed this as well, i just took a dremmel and smoothened the top out, it feels really smoothe! And mine had dirt on them too, i power washed them and painted mine and the look great! I would get a variety of 12" and 15", you dont always have to settle for 1!

[jokerman]

Thanks for your helpful (and otherwise) responses. I appreciate your input Supdawg since I wouldn't complain about the cutting or typical factory particulate debris. I agree with you %100 percent that someone should have looked at these things and thought "this is not going to look good to the buyer at all". I mean when there are clumps of mud on something, how do you not at least try to scrape it off before packaing it? I still appreciate their product and good service, but this was my first experience and was surprised by the condition of their product. My functional concerns for the item include that I would not choose to get the wooden plugs wet because I don't want to warp or weaken them in any way. I also want to avoid blockage and remove any possible debris from the tubes so that there won't be any additional material to blast out of the tubes. All this being said, the tubes contain good plugs and were delivered in a little over a week. There doesn't need to be a big defense going up here for the company since I know they are reputable and I expected at least one sarcastic remark since I have not had a question posted without one yet. I just wanted to see if this is normal. I will clean them up very quickly myself.

[shrapnel]

Jokerman, there was actually clumps of mud on the mortars? that is the first time i've heard that, bummer! I have seen the residue on the in and outsides of them but mine was just on a few and a very thin layer, not enough to affect anything. Sorry if I came across as a smart-ass, not my intention at all. Like I said I have shopped and felt pretty fortunate to find the mortars at half the price and sometimes more than other places! As far as cleaning them I've gone as far as to sand, prime and paint them red white and blue for one of my racks!

[jokerman]

No problem Shrapnel. They were VERY dirty. But they will be cleaned and are otherwise in sound structural condition. I'm glad I found this site because I think I had the idea at an earlier time to use PVC pipe for mortars and at least I have the right material now!

[leeca]

I think that they should de-burr the tubes and they should be clean. That HDPE is a pain to De-burr if you don’t have shop! Now if I had a lathe handy, Bam done in a few minutes and they would look real nice.

Pyro Gear.. Hint hint :)

http://www.deephousepage.com/smilies/daz.gif

I still plan on getting more tubes and it will be from Pyro Gear, I am happy to do business with them.

[noel]

Here's the skinny on the cosmetics.

We store our pipe outdoors, our supplier stores it outdoors.
It's ordered 16,000 feet per load. The last bundle we had was the bottom bundle on the pile. Usually we never get to the bottom without restocking.
We cleaned off what we could and got the orders out the door. If you actually had some clumps, well, I appologize, we do try to clean off anything more than just a residue. If it had a dirty residue all over it, that's the way it is really, the water is dirty, it dries and leaves that powdery residue over the pipe.

We cut around 1,000' per hour. For us to make it perfectly clean, the price will go way up as it will take that down to about 250' per hour to clean each piece as it goes through.

Burrs at the top:
We talked to a few tool makers, and for around $1k, we could have made a machine that peffectly deburs each pipe. But it would double the production time. And again, the cost would go up.


Why do products cost so much at a retail operation? Because most retail buyers expect a perfect, clean and wonderfully presentable product.

We try to make the Most FUNCTIONAL product at the lowest price.
We could use all sanded plywood, and molded HDPE sides for our mortar racks, but the price would go WAY up.

Most people that buy mortars are trying to put together a professional looking show that can't be done with the single tube that comes with a box of fireworks.

[Deweycoon]

Noel, with the price of pipe sky rocketing I would like to thank you for doing what you can to keep the mortar prices reasonable.
Keep up the good work!

[Supdawg]

Here's the skinny on the cosmetics.

We store our pipe outdoors, our supplier stores it outdoors.
It's ordered 16,000 feet per load. The last bundle we had was the bottom bundle on the pile. Usually we never get to the bottom without restocking.
We cleaned off what we could and got the orders out the door. If you actually had some clumps, well, I appologize, we do try to clean off anything more than just a residue. If it had a dirty residue all over it, that's the way it is really, the water is dirty, it dries and leaves that powdery residue over the pipe.

We cut around 1,000' per hour. For us to make it perfectly clean, the price will go way up as it will take that down to about 250' per hour to clean each piece as it goes through.

Burrs at the top:
We talked to a few tool makers, and for around $1k, we could have made a machine that peffectly deburs each pipe. But it would double the production time. And again, the cost would go up.


Why do products cost so much at a retail operation? Because most retail buyers expect a perfect, clean and wonderfully presentable product.

We try to make the Most FUNCTIONAL product at the lowest price.
We could use all sanded plywood, and molded HDPE sides for our mortar racks, but the price would go WAY up.

Most people that buy mortars are trying to put together a professional looking show that can't be done with the single tube that comes with a box of fireworks.
I appreciate the response Noel. I still feel the same way. You might want to at least disclose this on your site so that people can have expectations of such. It's a small courtesy, but a big deal to many.

My biggest deal is not the spurs, but the pipes. Thanks

[Li Fung That]

Noel, Great service and I am not drinking or eating out of the tubes I purchased yet. By the way, the burr is gone, i think the Excals took care of that big honkin burr. I am just ripping holes in the sky. Satisfied customer. :lol:

[ken150]

Noel, with the price of pipe sky rocketing I would like to thank you for doing what you can to keep the mortar prices reasonable.
Keep up the good work!


I would like to second that!!!!! :)

[Dan]

Noel,

don't listen to the few "nay sayers" in the group. You have a great product, and price that is second to none. Don't change a darn thing. Heck all it takes is a bucket of soapy water, and a pocket knife and 10 minutes of your time, and these things are cleaned up ready to go, anyone can do it.

So just keep cranking them out, mud, dirt, whatever. THey are AFTER ALL gonna be used outside and get dirty anyway.

Dan

[Supdawg]

Noel,

don't listen to the few "nay sayers" in the group. You have a great product, and price that is second to none. Don't change a darn thing. Heck all it takes is a bucket of soapy water, and a pocket knife and 10 minutes of your time, and these things are cleaned up ready to go, anyone can do it.

So just keep cranking them out, mud, dirt, whatever. THey are AFTER ALL gonna be used outside and get dirty anyway.

Dan
I can't believe the rampant homerism I am hearing? What, can't no one take some constructive criticism? :puke:
I'll just leave it at that. It's not even worth me trying to waste my time to explain. :puke: :puke:

[pyrochris]

Just ordered 8 more 12" tubes and a XL T-Shirt! Cant wait to get it! :D

[RudyG]

Mike, if you've got the fuse I'll do the splicing, but if you would have gotten the bulk shells from Victory the fuses are usually longer. Noel great product I have to order somemore racks with all the shells I have this year.:lol:

[ken150]

I hope with all this complaining going on, noel dont start cleaning and deburing the tubes and then raise the prices!!!

[Supdawg]

I hope with all this complaining going on, noel dont start cleaning and deburing the tubes and then raise the prices!!!

It's pretty obvious not many people around here could run a business. :rolleyes:

[pyrochris]

It's pretty obvious not many people around here could run a business. :rolleyes:
:lol: so true... so true.

[liftngwaght]

Well I just bought 2 10-shot mortar racks from pyrogear.net. Cant wait to get em in. $80 something with shipping....works for me.

~Thomas

[Deweycoon]

It's pretty obvious not many people around here could run a business. :rolleyes:

Dawg if you want some some nice clean and deberred HDPE contact Victory....they are selling them for $4 each.
The mortars Victory is selling belong in their retail stores because at $4 each the people who buy fireworks by the case aren't going to buy these mortars.
Jeff said they are making $.25 on each mortar.

[ken150]

It's pretty obvious not many people around here could run a business. :rolleyes:



It is a good thing that noel knows how to run a business.:D It appears that he is doing fine.

[jokerman]

don't listen to the few "nay sayers" in the group. You have a great product, and price that is second to none. Don't change a darn thing. Heck all it takes is a bucket of soapy water, and a pocket knife and 10 minutes of your time, and these things are cleaned up ready to go, anyone can do it.

So just keep cranking them out, mud, dirt, whatever. THey are AFTER ALL gonna be used outside and get dirty anyway.


"Yes Noel, please stuff my mortar tubes with mud before you send them to me, oh yes"

Seriously, as said earlier, can't people deal with other people posting their constructive comments about otherwise good vendors without acting like its their Mother we are talking about? There's so many irritating comments made on this forum that it makes it difficult to enjoy this great resource sometimes. As I said earlier, I don't think the supplier sucks or anything! I honestly would have paid an extra 50 cents each to not have to clean out the tubes and waterlog the plugs, but hey that's my problem. I imagine if some of you buy a case of cakes tomorrow and you open the main box and the inside boxes are covered with mud (but not the fireworks themselves) that you would be happy to just clean everything off and whistle while you did it. It would be interesting to see if a comments was made on the forum from such people and hear back remarks like "well are you going to go on a date with the box or rip them open and light them on fire?" Well maybe I am going to hang them up on my mantle, who knows. I saw some people's pictures in the galleries where they have done just excatly that and they have their kids pictures next to them! Whatever. If I buy a gun for cheap, I don't expect to get it sent to me covered in mud even though I can just clean it off! Bottom line, it wasn't such a big deal, but from now on I guess there should be no slightly negative comments made about any vendors or I will have to be more annoyed by people rushing to the rescue than the problem itself.

[Deweycoon]

To the guys that need to receive clean mortars.
Were do you store your mortars that they need to be clean?
Do you take them out of the rack after each use and clean all the powder residue off?

My racks are in the garage full of dust... my mortars are covered with black powder/dust.
I'm sure it's exciting to receive your first mortars but the reality is they are going to get dirty!

[jokerman]

If you read the rest of thread it wasn't dirt or grime that came on them, but rather caked-on MUD. Seriously, I am cleaning them out right now and I am happier than I have ever been in my life. Oh man, this is great...check it out..outtasight!

[Supdawg]

"Yes Noel, please stuff my mortar tubes with mud before you send them to me, oh yes"

Seriously, as said earlier, can't people deal with other people posting their constructive comments about otherwise good vendors without acting like its their Mother we are talking about? There's so many irritating comments made on this forum that it makes it difficult to enjoy this great resource sometimes. As I said earlier, I don't think the supplier sucks or anything! I honestly would have paid an extra 50 cents each to not have to clean out the tubes and waterlog the plugs, but hey that's my problem. I imagine if some of you buy a case of cakes tomorrow and you open the main box and the inside boxes are covered with mud (but not the fireworks themselves) that you would be happy to just clean everything off and whistle while you did it. It would be interesting to see if a comments was made on the forum from such people and hear back remarks like "well are you going to go on a date with the box or rip them open and light them on fire?" Well maybe I am going to hang them up on my mantle, who knows. I saw some people's pictures in the galleries where they have done just excatly that and they have their kids pictures next to them! Whatever. If I buy a gun for cheap, I don't expect to get it sent to me covered in mud even though I can just clean it off! Bottom line, it wasn't such a big deal, but from now on I guess there should be no slightly negative comments made about any vendors or I will have to be more annoyed by people rushing to the rescue than the problem itself.

I agree...

Good bye.

[ken150]

I have bought several times from noel and i dont recall caked on mud. My last buy just came in yesterday and the same, dust not caked on mud.

[DennyMo]

If any of you are really bothered by the burrs, these deburring tools would do the trick. $3.33 at McMaster.com, part number 4286A14.
http://www.mcmaster.com/catalog/112/gfx/small/4286ap1s.gif

[URBNFLX]

I just got my first batch of tubes from pyrogear and they are a little dirty and not deburred but hey what can I say there cheap and I didnt have to have all the tooling necessary to cut/plug my own stuff with(I do own a burr whip though). I do have to say that they have top notch customer service though. They mailed me stating that my entire order was not ready to ship and that there would be a delay or that they could ship me a partial. I asked how much the second shipment was and they said they would cover the shipping on a few tubes that were short.

EXCELLENT by me...:D

[Li Fung That]

That's what I said earlier, 3 day service,with a confirmed shipped email. I can handle the dirt. Oh yeah if you buy the tubes from Victory and they are the old type with the clay plugs, use hot glue on the plug to cement it in place. The ones I have loosened after a about 25 rounds and started slowly backing out.

[jdean0003]

I understand where Jokerman is coming from. In today's world, you just don't expect to get a product in the condition he is describing. It is unusual. I think he was completely justified in expressing his concern. If he was complaining about a little dust or grime, then sure, that would be over the top. But clumps of dried mud and dirt is strange. I think the supplier explained himself well and Jokerman wold have accepted that explanation just fine if it had not been for everyone jumping down his throat. There are a lot of uptight people around here for some reason. Is it the time of year or what?

Personally, it doesn't really bother me. I keep my racks in my shed in the backyard. I do not paint them, polish them, or pose small children next to them for pictures. I think that's a little strange. I do, however, launch an ungodly amount of beautiful, spectacular, heart-pounding, eye-popping, ground-thumping shells out of them as often as possible. I suggest you all just do the same and relieve a little bit of this stress around here!!!:cool:

[pyrochris]

I understand where Jokerman is coming from. In today's world, you just don't expect to get a product in the condition he is describing. It is unusual. I think he was completely justified in expressing his concern. If he was complaining about a little dust or grime, then sure, that would be over the top. But clumps of dried mud and dirt is strange. I think the supplier explained himself well and Jokerman wold have accepted that explanation just fine if it had not been for everyone jumping down his throat. There are a lot of uptight people around here for some reason. Is it the time of year or what?

Personally, it doesn't really bother me. I keep my racks in my shed in the backyard. I do not paint them, polish them, or pose small children next to them for pictures. I think that's a little strange. I do, however, launch an ungodly amount of beautiful, spectacular, heart-pounding, eye-popping, ground-thumping shells out of them as often as possible. I suggest you all just do the same and relieve a little bit of this stress around here!!!:cool:
So you think painting mortars are strange? How is it strange, something someone else does might be tougher for them than it is for you. People post pictures of their kids next to them because, maybe they want to? I paint my mortars all the time, am i strange? no i just like stuff differently than other people.

[jdean0003]

So you think painting mortars are strange? How is it strange, something someone else does might be tougher for them than it is for you. People post pictures of their kids next to them because, maybe they want to? I paint my mortars all the time, am i strange? no i just like stuff differently than other people.

Maybe you are strange. I don't know you. But of course, as I said....I think it is strange. I didn't say you're an absolute freak if you do it. To each his own, but I am entitled to my opinion as are you. Do I have to explain every little statement in detail so everyone can understand every aspect of my thinking?

What's the big deal? You gotta let stuff go sometimes, you know?

[jokerman]

This discussion is helping noone at this point. Can't we just get back to talking civil about important aspects of fireworks? Thanks for your support jdean0003.

[Marty]

I ordered 20 hdpe tubes with plugs from pyrogear and they came pretty quick. The only thing strange is that they are FILTHY. They actually have mud on them and the inside and outs have a layer of dirt thatat looks like they were picked up out of a mud puddle and put into the box. It's not a disaster since I guess I can clean them and I don't need them to be VERY clean or anything, but c'mon! Is this typical?

My question is, did you address this complaint with Pyrogear before posting on an open forum? If not, Noel might have appreciated an opportunity to resolve the issue before getting MF'ed publicly. It's a 2 way street.

Marty

[leeca]

I think that they should de-burr the tubes and they should be clean. That HDPE is a pain to De-burr if you don’t have shop! Now if I had a lathe handy, Bam done in a few minutes and they would look real nice.

Pyro Gear.. Hint hint :).



We cut around 1,000' per hour. For us to make it perfectly clean, the price will go way up as it will take that down to about 250' per hour to clean each piece as it goes through.

Burrs at the top:
We talked to a few toolmakers, and for around $1k, we could have made a machine that perfectly deburs each pipe. But it would double the production time. And again, the cost would go up.


Why do products cost so much at a retail operation? Because most retail buyers expect a perfect, clean and wonderfully presentable product.

We try to make the Most FUNCTIONAL product at the lowest price.
We could use all sanded plywood, and molded HDPE sides for our mortar racks, but the price would go WAY up.

Most people that buy mortars are trying to put together a professional looking show that can't be done with the single tube that comes with a box of fireworks.

Noel,

don't listen to the few "nay sayers" in the group. You have a great product, and price that is second to none. Don't change a darn thing. Heck all it takes is a bucket of soapy water, and a pocket knife and 10 minutes of your time, and these things are cleaned up ready to go, anyone can do it.

So just keep cranking them out, mud, dirt, whatever. THey are AFTER ALL gonna be used outside and get dirty anyway.

Dan

http://www.ultimatesafehaven.net/HomeSafe/images/smilies/couch.gif
This is the type of reality that is reviled when a backyard shooters view (Novice)
crosses path with the professional’s eye view. (Makes a living at it)

OK that makes sence.. it would highly increase the cost.

One other question then. Would you consider offering optional de-burred tubes for an additional fee for the small timers who buy 25 or less at a time? (I never got dirty ones and would not care, I don't eat or drink out of them either LOL)

Of course still offer the regular tubes for your bulk customers (Who don't care about no stinking burrs):D

[Li Fung That]

http://www.ultimatesafehaven.net/HomeSafe/images/smilies/couch.gif
This is the type of reality that is reviled when a backyard shooters view (Novice)
crosses path with the professional’s eye view. (Makes a living at it)

OK that makes sence.. it would highly increase the cost.

One other question then. Would you consider offering optional de-burred tubes for an additional fee for the small timers who buy 25 or less at a time? (I never got dirty ones and would not care, I don't eat or drink out of them either LOL)

Of course still offer the regular tubes for your bulk customers (Who don't care about no stinking burrs):D

What I take offense to that statement, as of this afternoon i am Drinking out of that dirty mortar.

[leeca]

What I take offense to that statement, as of this afternoon i am Drinking out of that dirty mortar.I'm pretty sure that was just a way of saying that having some dirt (and some burrs) on some mortar tubes is considered a minor inconvenience in exchange for much lower prices for the majority of Pyro Gears bulk buying client base. It was not meant to have a double meaning trying to insult anybody.

http://deephousepage.com/smilies/twocents.gif

[jokerman]

Maybe you are strange. I don't know you. But of course, as I said....I think it is strange. I didn't say you're an absolute freak if you do it. To each his own, but I am entitled to my opinion as are you. Do I have to explain every little statement in detail so everyone can understand every aspect of my thinking?

What's the big deal? You gotta let stuff go sometimes, you know?

First of all, this is my favorite reply so far on this topic, it is truly funny and intelligent, with no insult to any other reply. It's even funnier to see people continuing to post comments that are feeding into the obtuse side of this mentioning of mud in the tubes I bought. I hope I can releive the burden of this problem by reporting that today I cleaned out those tubes, and made my first rack...and I am very grateful for the HDPE tubes that were delivered to make the rack. Thank you guys. Removing the mud was the easiest part of the job. Just to report, it took about half an hour to clean the tubes and so I hope everyone can finally be done with the problem I have started. I hope everyone knows that I would STILL buy from this company again, as I said earlier. My rack weighs too much, I think....that will be discussed at another time. Goodnight guys, I'm rather drunk....God Bless.

[jdean0003]

Just a side note...

I ordered 120 tubes from Pyrogear last week. Dirty or not, good price and good product. No complaints from me. I have a power washer that makes quick work of a little bit of dirt or mud.

Congratulations on completing your new racks. Enjoy them!

[Bmiller]

Just ordered 100 tubes from pyrogear, (whish they were fiberglass) but very happy with the price. My tubes are all stored outside and usually fill with water which helps keep them clean and also does not let the wood plugs dry out and become loose. My tubes and racks look like GARBAGE but no one can see them when they are being used and I dont tell the shells about the dirt.

[missinglink]

It is my opinion that regardless of how cheap or reasonably priced an item is, it is just not very professional to send out dirty or roughly finished products to a customer. I would not be very happy to receive mortars in the condition described and would probably let the supplier know that. If they told me to stick in my ear... I would simply not buy from them again. ;)

For those of you who don't care, cool..... Don't dis' someone who does....

[Bmiller]

So much BULL over nothing! Noel, send my tubes Dirty!, the 15 minutes it takes me to clean them will not adversly affect my life. I will not turn to Drugs and Crime, promise not to murder anyone (except some idiots on this site) and go on with my life as a normal pyro.
You Guys Got To LOOSEN UP!
I have heard less outcry over kids being molested. Get a life, get over it and worry about your show. The time you spend typing could go to better use getting ready.

[ken150]

Like i said in a earlier post my tubes were dusty not muddy. The show this 4th will take care of the burrs. When i get done with all the building and sawing the other tubes are usally dusty from the saw dust. So no need to clean any way.

[jdean0003]

I have heard less outcry over kids being molested.

Nice comparison....:rolleyes:

Maybe this thread should be locked before any other statements are made that make all of the sane people want to jump off a bridge!!!:D

[jokerman]

Maybe this thread should be locked before any other statements are made that make all of the sane people want to jump off a bridge!!!

please!!